Isn't God evil, if He allowed Adam's fall to harm us?

[JAL]

Well, you talk about this "child abuse" but I am uncertain that I comprehend who is doing the abusing and what the abuse entails.
If you could kindly detail what you are meaning, it would avoid any confusion in my reply.

PLease re-read post 358, at the end of which, I asked you a very clear question:

"That's like me finding a way to addict your children to cocaine. Tell me, would that be child abuse in your eyes? Or would you be A-okay with it?"

 

[JacksBratt]

PLease re-read post 358, at the end of which, I asked you a very clear question:

"That's like me finding a way to addict your children to cocaine. Tell me, would that be child abuse in your eyes? Or would you be A-okay with it?"

OK, so, if I get your point or scenario correctly...

God was responsible for Adam's sin.. or God put the fact that Adam sinned on all of us and thus we sin and God is responsible.

Here is my take....

God is not responsible for Adam's sin.. That was all Adam and all Eve, individually they each had a responsibility for their own sin.

If Eve ate and Adam didn't... the situation would have been different.. Except, one could argue, Adam was negligent of protecting his mate by sitting there and allowing her do sin.

In the end.. Sin entered the human race due to human failure... Not God's failure. Not God's neglect. Not God's irresponsibility.

Putting this on God is misplaced blame.

ALSO....

In your scenario, with the child addicted to cocaine... It's not an issue for the child if they are never held accountable for things they cannot comprehend.. and when they are old enough to comprehend.. in the case of cocaine... if they just had to say "I'm addicted to cocaine and don't want to be anymore" and then they would be free of it.... then what is the issue?


No child. No infant. No mentally handicapped or mentally oblivious human will ever be held accountable for their sin.

There is no reason to point at God... Every single soul will face Christ one day. If they point to Him and say.. "It's your fault"... If they had the arrogance... which they will not as they will be on their face with shame..... If they were to say "It's your fault"........It would be laughed out of court...

In the audience of Christ, as each soul stands there, they will be, for sure, aware of one solid truth... It was their doing, they are wholly responsible for their actions and must, thusly, accept their due fate.

 

[JAL]

As expected, not a direct answer to the question. Instead, deflection.

OK, so, if I get your point or scenario correctly...

God was responsible for Adam's sin.

Nope. That was neither stated nor implied. That has never been one of my objections to traditional thinking because it's not the traditional position (although perhaps hyper-Calavinism might be accused of it). You're putting words in my mouth, creating a strawman easy to knock down.

My objection is that God, in traditional thinking, visits Adam's sinful nature on others (people who are not Adam). He doesn't protect the children. I would certainly protect mine because I'm much more kind than YOUR version of God.

In your scenario, with the child addicted to cocaine... It's not an issue for the child if they are never held accountable for things they cannot comprehend.. and when they are old enough to comprehend.. in the case of cocaine... if they just had to say "I'm addicted to cocaine and don't want to be anymore" and then they would be free of it.... then what is the issue?

So that wouldn't be child abuse? You would let me walk right into your house and get your kids addicted cocaine, HOPING that at some point they will say, "I'm addicted to cocaine and don't want to be anymore" (let's assume for a moment, to keep the analogy accurate, that confession would free them).
THAT is the question. Would it be child abuse, or not? As expected, you still haven't answered the question.

In my opinion, BOTH of us would be guilty of child abuse. I would be guilty directly, and you, as a parent, indirectly guilty for failing to protect your children from me.

 

[JAL]

@JacksBratt,
At post 357 I asked you this question and I don't seem to recall a clear answer:

"And all those fetuses who HAVE suffered disease and starvation. Tell me, exactly when did they sin?"

 

[JacksBratt]

Nope. That was neither stated nor implied.

Very well then... Now you understand why I asked for clarity... life is simple when you take time to ask and communicate, no?

My objection is that God, in traditional thinking, visits Adam's sinful nature on others (people who are not Adam).

What do you mean by "visits" Adam's sinful nature on others?

Adam sinned. He was the beginning of the human race... His actions affect us due to the fact that perfect children cannot be born of imperfect parents. Was Adam and Eve supposed to have perfect children? As if they had not sinned?

Remember, they died that day....

So that wouldn't be child abuse?

Not God's abuse. Are you placing the blame on God for allowing Adam to sin?
Or
For God allowing temptation?
Or
Blaming God for, well..........what exactly?

WHO is abusing the children?

It would be ADAM and EVE... If a couple are both addicted to cocaine, since you like that analogy so well, and they have children, born addicted to cocaine.... It's not the doctors fault... It's not societies fault... It's not the grandparents fault...

NO... it's the parents fault.. The child inherited it's addiction from the actions of it's parent's... The parent's who are guilty of any abuse..

Adam and Eve are guilty of bringing this sin on us.. this addiction. NOT GOD.

GOD gave the solution. God gave the remedy..GOD gave the relief from the addiction to sin..

HE did so by sacrificing His own son.

God is NOT evil.... He is LOVE.

THAT is the question.

Your question is flawed. It is set up to fail.

Your blame should not be placed on God... but solidly on our Ancestors.. Adam and Eve.

God gave His Son who went through all the withdrawal symptoms of an addiction that He never had..

Now.. all a child has to do is say "I am addicted. I don't want to be addicted anymore". They don't have to go through the withdrawal symptoms.. which would kill them.

Would it be child abuse, or not? As expected, you still haven't answered the question.

Yep, but "you" in the scenario, who is getting my children addicted...is not God... It is Satan, working through deception to tempt Adam and Eve... The drug dealer so to speak...

Yes, Adam and Eve, also.... but there only way to have obeyed God and fill the earth.. was to have addicted children..

Either way.. God was not the abuser.. He was the healer.. the one showing the utmost love by sacrificing His son.. to save ours.

 

[JacksBratt]

@JacksBratt,
At post 357 I asked you this question and I don't seem to recall a clear answer:

"And all those fetuses who HAVE suffered disease and starvation. Tell me, exactly when did they sin?"

They didn't sin.
What gave you the idea that they did?

Are you saying that they had diseases as a result of their sin? Are you saying that people starve because of their sin?

God does not work that way.. All the people of all the earth will suffer... not because of their personal sins but due to the fact that sin is in the world.

It is an imperfect world. Bad things happen. Our bodies get sick. People are not punished with disease and starvation... for their sins.

Babies are born without sin.. but with the sin nature.... Do you understand this?

 

[JAL]

If you want to hear my solution, sorry I won't bother, as you can't seem to understand concepts like child abuse, parental neglect and so forth.

They didn't sin.
What gave you the idea that they did?

Are you saying that they had diseases as a result of their sin? Are you saying that people starve because of their sin?

God does not work that way.. All the people of all the earth will suffer... not because of their personal sins but due to the fact that sin is in the world.

It is an imperfect world. Bad things happen. Our bodies get sick. People are not punished with disease and starvation... for their sins.

Babies are born without sin.. but with the sin nature.... Do you understand this?

What kind of parent would neglect to do his utmost to protect innocent children and fetuses? You don't see any of this as child abuse? Not even as a lack of kindness? So if I kidnapped your kids and made them starve to death, or infected them with disease, you'd say, 'Well that's just a consequence of sin in the world, not my fault Jal is a sinner, it's not my responsibility to protect them.' Huh?

Because you are suggesting that God had no moral obligation to protect these fetuses from starvation, disease, violence, etc. And I say, your version of God has behaved like a monster - even if He partially compensated later via the atonement.

 

[JAL]

They didn't sin.
What gave you the idea that they did?

Are you saying that they had diseases as a result of their sin? Are you saying that people starve because of their sin?

God does not work that way.. All the people of all the earth will suffer... not because of their personal sins but due to the fact that sin is in the world.

It is an imperfect world. Bad things happen. Our bodies get sick. People are not punished with disease and starvation... for their sins.

Babies are born without sin.. but with the sin nature.... Do you understand this?

But who made this world? Why would a (supposedly) perfectly good God make a world where it is even possible for innocent fetuses to starve to death? How is that not parental neglect, child abuse, and irresponsible behavior?

 

[JAL]

Very well then... Now you understand why I asked for clarity... life is simple when you take time to ask and communicate, no?


What do you mean by "visits" Adam's sinful nature on others?

He allows it to propagate to innocent zygotes, instead of protecting them from it, according to your view.

But if you're asking me HOW He propagates it, that's another logical contradiction in your position. It is logically impossible to propragate/transfer/transmit (etc) a sinful nature because sin, is by definition, a volitional act. You cannot just HAVE sin. You must choose to DO the sinful.

 

[JacksBratt]

If you want to hear my solution, sorry I won't bother, as you can't seem to understand concepts like child abuse, parental neglect and so forth.

I am a parent.. I also have enough intelligence to comprehend the concept of "child abuse"

I am not arguing your scenario of "child abuse" I'm questioning the subject of who is to blame.

But..... usually when someone is not getting the proper responses to their questions.. They will sign out.. "I won't bother" due to X or Y.. that I don't like about your response.

That's OK... I don't think that your analogy is going where you want it to anyway.

I also don't think that you have a "solution" that is better than the cross. IMO.

What kind of parent would neglect to do his utmost to protect innocent children and fetuses? You don't see any of this as child abuse? Not even as a lack of kindness? So if I kidnapped your kids and made them starve to death, or infected them with disease, you'd say, 'Well that's just a consequence of sin in the world, not my fault Jal is a sinner, it's not my responsibility to protect them.' Huh?

HUH? is right.............WHO is abusing the kids...............................PLEASE TELL ME.

WHO are you, the kidnapper... the one starving the kids.? GOD? SATAN? ADAM?... WHO.

Because you are suggesting that God had no moral obligation to protect these fetuses from starvation, disease, violence, etc.

What moral obligation does God have to make every fetus perfectly healthy? Born to perfect parents? Is God supposed to reach down every time this sinful earth brings someone to some sort of non perfection in life?

That ended long ago with Adam and Eve... Sin entered the world.. Satan is the Prince of this world. Things happen in a broken world.

God is fixing it.. He gave His son. His son died for all of us.. If we accept Him we will live eternally in paradise... with no sin.. no sickness, no tears..

That is not happening here.

And I say, your version of God has behaved like a monster - even if He partially compensated later via the atonement.

God is a monster because He gave Adam and Eve free will and they disobeyed Him?


I guess God should have just created them as robots and not given them free will... Or.. given them freewill and never had them tested... Just create a bunch of creatures to love you... not knowing if they love you or love all the things they get from you.

 

[JacksBratt]

But who made this world? Why would a (supposedly) perfectly good God make a world where it is even possible for innocent fetuses to starve to death? How is that not parental neglect, child abuse, and irresponsible behavior?

Hmmm... why?

He made a perfect world... Remember? "And God saw that it was good"... Remember that?

However, "a life unexamined is not worth living".

If you created a bunch of little beings.. And your friend did the same.. And you never let them be put to the test... while your friend did..

So, now, you have 100% of these beings with you.. But your friend lost 90% of his who betrayed their creator...

You would say.."look, I have all my created beings.. He would say... Ah.. but how many are true?"
That is the rub.... God wanted only those worthy.. Those that were given a chance to make the choice and chose HIM. Then, He made the test so simple... Just to believe in Him....

 

[JAL]

I am a parent.. I also have enough intelligence to comprehend the concept of "child abuse"

I am not arguing your scenario of "child abuse" I'm questioning the subject of who is to blame.

But..... usually when someone is not getting the proper responses to their questions.. They will sign out.. "I won't bother" due to X or Y.. that I don't like about your response.

That's OK... I don't think that your analogy is going where you want it to anyway.

I also don't think that you have a "solution" that is better than the cross. IMO.





HUH? is right.............WHO is abusing the kids...............................PLEASE TELL ME.

WHO are you, the kidnapper... the one starving the kids.? GOD? SATAN? ADAM?... WHO.

Well yes - that's what I said right? I'm the kidnapper. But you as the parent have no obligation to TRY TO PROTECT THEM FROM ME as the kidnapper? How many times do I have to repeat the objection? How many ways can I rephrase it? Are you saying that if I came to kidnap your kids (or harm them in any way) that you'd stand idly by and WATCH? You wouldn't due your utmost to protect.

Standing idly by as the parent - that's not abuse, neglect, irresponsibility, and so on? It's all of the above - or at least ONE of the above!

 

[JacksBratt]

He allows it to propagate to innocent zygotes, instead of protecting them from it, according to your view.

But if you're asking me HOW He propagates it, that's another logical contradiction in your position. It is logically impossible to propragate/transfer/transmit (etc) a sinful nature because sin, is by definition, a volitional act. You cannot just HAVE sin. You must choose to DO the sinful.

Look, JAL... I'm sure that you mean well and you are wrestling with making some concepts very complicated.. all the while they are very simple.

How would God protect "innocent zygotes"?

 

[JAL]

What moral obligation does God have to make every fetus perfectly healthy?

We're taking about fetuses starving to death. Permitted by a God supposedly of maximal kindness?

If God is supposed to be kind, how is that NOT obligatory? Suppose you let your own children starve to death. Should you be punished for it?

No moral obligation on your part to feed your kids?

 

[JAL]

Look, JAL... I'm sure that you mean well and you are wrestling with making some concepts very complicated.. all the while they are very simple.

How would God protect "innocent zygotes"?

What kind of question is that? You're seriously asking me how an omnipotent God could manage protect the innocent? You honestly have no idea how?
(1) For one, by not creating a world where it is possible for the innocent to suffer.
(2) When danger appoaches (e.g. the specter of starvation), intervening (provide food, shelter, whatever is needed).
(3) By shielding them from disease, and/or providing immediate healing if needed.

Is your God impotent? Has He no capabilities at all?

 

[JAL]

God is a monster because He gave Adam and Eve free will and they disobeyed Him?

For the 11 millionth time that is not my objection and has nothing to do with my objection. You keep creating this strawman because you don't have any valid counterpoints.

I guess God should have just created them as robots and not given them free will... Or.. given them freewill and never had them tested... Just create a bunch of creatures to love you... not knowing if they love you or love all the things they get from you.

11-million-one.

 

[JAL]

@JacksBratt,
I think I see the disconnect here. People like you have been so indoctrinated to believe in a parentally cruel and negligent God that they really can't imagine questioning it or conceiving anything wrong with that picture. How sad.

 

[JAL]

Hmmm... why?

He made a perfect world... Remember? "And God saw that it was good"... Remember that?

Yes, this world fits perfectly well with MY version of God and MY version of Adam (see the OP). For example in my version, no one is innocent, not even a fetus. If you don't grasp why, re-read the OP please.

However, "a life unexamined is not worth living".

If you created a bunch of little beings.. And your friend did the same.. And you never let them be put to the test... while your friend did..

So, now, you have 100% of these beings with you.. But your friend lost 90% of his who betrayed their creator...

You would say.."look, I have all my created beings.. He would say... Ah.. but how many are true?"
That is the rub.... God wanted only those worthy.. Those that were given a chance to make the choice and chose HIM. Then, He made the test so simple... Just to believe in Him....

11-million-two.

 

[wisemenpray]

Do you pray? If so, how do you pray? If not, why don't you pray?

 

[JacksBratt]

@JacksBratt,
I think I see the disconnect here. People like you have been so indoctrinated to believe in a parentally cruel and negligent God that they really can't imagine questioning it or conceiving anything wrong with that picture. How sad.

I've had a long weekend and just came back to read over our conversation here.

All I can say is this... God.... is pure righteousness. God.... personifies love..... God.... is the holiest of the holy's....

So, if you think He is evil, a monster, cruel, committing abuse, or in any way is responsible for any action that is contrary to the purest of all that is good and righteous............................

Then, you have a problem with your view.

There is no more that I can say here.