Isn't God evil, if He allowed Adam's fall to harm us?

[JAL]

You may as well say that Adam's sin ... ushered humankind into phase 2 of God's program of spiritual growth ...

Why did Paul say that Adam brought sin into the world? Didn't Eve sin first?

On my reading it makes sense. In my view Eve was a subsection of that one material soul named Adam. Thus we can truly say that Adam brought sin in to the world.

But on a traditional view of Adam, it doesn't make sense.

 

[A_Thinker]

Because you didn't address my arguments. Does that help?

So ... we're only here to evaluate your thoughts on this ?

No other thought is allowed ???

Therefore, ... no valid search for truth, ... only validation for yourself ???

That's okay ... I can find real discussion elsewhere ...

 

[JAL]

So ... we're only here to evaluate your thoughts on this ?

No other thought is allowed ???

Therefore, ... no valid search for truth, ... only validation for yourself ???

That's okay ... I can find real discussion elsewhere ...

If you cite my words in the pretense of responding to my objections, then I'd only expect you to address what I said. You didn't. Fine, but in that case why act surprised if I classify it as a shallow reply to my arguments?

 

[A_Thinker]

On my reading it makes sense. In my view Eve was a subsection of that one material soul named Adam. Thus we can truly say that Adam brought sin in to the world.

But on a traditional view of Adam, it doesn't make sense.

You do realize that the current view is that Adam passes his SEED on to every subsequent member of the human race, right ???

 

[A_Thinker]

If you cite my words in the pretense of responding to my objections, then I'd only expect you to address what I said. You didn't. Fine, but in that case why act surprised if I classify it as a shallow reply to my arguments?

Because you propose to be on a search for truth ...

A response of "Your thought is too shallow" ... without any explanation ... doesn't serve the search for truth ...

 

[JAL]

You do realize that the current view is that Adam passes his SEED on to every subsequent member of the human race, right ???

I think you're referring to the means of transmission (how the sinful nature is propragrated to Adam's descendants).

Donald Bloesch - one of the most prominent evangelical theologians of our generation - admitted in his systematic theology that the problem of transmission is "insoluble" (his word) on traditional assumptions (and he holds to the traditional Original Sin of Protestants and Catholics).

A few years back I read a segment of a Catholic Catechism that said the same.

Regardless of how the sin-nature is transmitted, the doctrine of Original Sin finds us guilty in Adam by representation.

 

[A_Thinker]

I think you're referring to the means of transmission (how the sinful nature is propragrated to Adam's descendants).

Donald Bloesch - one of the most prominent evangelical theologians of our generation - admitted in his systematic theology that the problem of transmission is "insoluble" (his word) on traditional assumptions (and he holds to the traditional Original Sin of Protestants and Catholics).

A few years back I read a segment of a Catholic Catechism that said the same.

Regardless of how the sin-nature is transmitted, the doctrine of Original Sin finds us guilty in Adam by representation.

You are only guilty in Adam because he is your true representative. You and he are the same kind ... as it regards morality. There is no reason to expect any better from you ... than from Adam ...

 

[JAL]

withdrawn

 

[JAL]

I think i withdrew the wrong post and can't recall what I posted

 

[Neostarwcc]

Wrong if you hold to the Protestant and Catholic view that Adam was our rep. And that view is based on Paul's claim that we all sinned in Adam.

Yes we inherited our sin from Adam like Paul says. Because we are all descendants of Adam. But we are not held responsible for his sins. If it were possible to live in a world where sin was voluntary Adam and those who sinned after Adam would be the ones declared guilty. But sadly once Adam sinned sin became involuntary and something we can't help so all of us are guilty because of Adam's first sin but we do not have to give an account for his sins we have to give an account for our own. Depending on your denomination and beliefs some people believe that Christian's dont have to give an account to God for their sins because God forgave them some people think you do. But when we give the account Adam's sins will NEVER come up. Otherwise Christ would have been declared guilty as well since he also was a descendant from Adam only his conception was a little different. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit. So that made it possible for him to make the free will choice whether or not to sin. If Christ had sinned during ANY part of his life than there would be no hope for us. But Christ lived a sinless life and was the only person in history and will be the only person in history to do so.

I cannot speak for the Catholic belief but we protestants believe that on the last day humanity will have to answer for their own sins and not for Adam's. I want you to read Revelation 20:12

"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books."

In other words they were judged according to the books that are recorded by God on every single person. It contains everything they've ever done good and bad and God will judge them based on that. Notice it doesn't say "and they were judged according to what they and Adam had done" just themselves.

 

[Neostarwcc]

I'm not satisfied with this but rather than respond directly, I'd like to refocus on Adam. Could you clarify where you stand? The Catholic/Protestant view? The Orthodox view?

I just responded to that .

 

[JAL]

Yes we inherited our sin from Adam like Paul says. Because we are all descendants of Adam. But we are not held responsible for his sins. If it were possible to live in a world where sin was voluntary Adam and those who sinned after Adam would be the ones declared guilty. But sadly once Adam sinned sin became involuntary and something we can't help so all of us are guilty because of Adam's first sin but we do not have to give an account for his sins we have to give an account for our own.

This is a monstrosity. 100 billion people are guilty of 'involuntary sin' (surely an oxymoron) that Adam caused?

You don't see that you've villainized God beyond belief? And all you need to do to resolve it is accept my simple solution?

In other words they were judged according to the books that are recorded by God on every single person. It contains everything they've ever done good and bad and God will judge them based on that. Notice it doesn't say "and they were judged according to what they and Adam had done" just themselves.

Right. It's clear to me that Scripture doesn't teach the Catholic/Protestant theory of Adamic representation.

 

[martymonster]

There are a lot of assumptions at play here. There's the assumption that God "allows" things, even though he is sovereign. There's also the assumption that Adam had somewhere to fall. Not to mention, the assumption that the suffering that mankind is enduring, is of no benefit to man, and not part of God's plan.
God's plan is to make man in his image, and it seems that there is a bit of a process that has to take place.

Firstly, man has to at least no good and evil.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

The price of knowing good and evil though, is that it comes with a price tag....death. Suffering and death is necessary to be conformed to the image of God.

Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

 

[Chris35]

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Adam was given authority over the earth, therefore Adam was the one who brought sin into the world because he had the final say.

From my understanding, a sinful nature is passed through Adam's seed, therefore Jesus wasn't a decendant of Adam because he wasnt conceived through a male but born from the spirit of God. It is the reason why Jesus conception had to be different and wy Jesus knew no sin.

God gave dominion over earth to Adam. Adam brought sin into the world. Would it then be right for God to say i didnt give you the earth to bring sin into it, so im going to take back all from you that I have given.

God still loves us, even though we are sinners. Instead of letting us die in our sin, which would be just. God decides to send Jesus to suffer and die in our place instead.

I don't know what point your trying to make Jal. Its easy to point the finger and blame everything on God and Adam. I guess if anything you could blame it on God's love for us, as God's love stopped him from destryoing man completely, even though he deeply grieved.

The same love that instead of destroying man, God decides to give up his son to bear the wrath of our sin. The only one who knew no sin, and did not deserve to die or suffer at all.

I urge you to spend some time in prayer, and ask God to reveal his love in your heart. God loves you very much.

 

[JAL]

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Adam was given authority over the earth, therefore Adam was the one who brought sin into the world because he had the final say.

From my understanding, a sinful nature is passed through Adam's seed, therefore Jesus wasn't a decendant of Adam because he wasnt conceived through a male but born from the spirit of God. It is the reason why Jesus conception had to be different and wy Jesus knew no sin.

God gave dominion over earth to Adam. Adam brought sin into the world. Would it then be right for God to say i didnt give you the earth to bring sin into it, so im going to take back all from you that I have given.

God still loves us, even though we are sinners. Instead of letting us die in our sin, which would be just. God decides to send Jesus to suffer and die in our place instead.

I don't know what point your trying to make Jal. Its easy to point the finger and blame everything on God and Adam. I guess if anything you could blame it on God's love for us, as God's love stopped him from destryoing man completely, even though he deeply grieved.

The same love that instead of destroying man, God decides to give up his son to bear the wrath of our sin. The only one who knew no sin, and did not deserve to die or suffer at all.

I urge you to spend some time in prayer, and ask God to reveal his love in your heart. God loves you very much.

You're not understanding me at all. God is love. I'm sure of it. The only time I doubted it was back when I held to a traditional understanding of God and Adam.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Ok let's be precise. In my view Adam was the first human. His soul was new. It was not a fallen angel. Everything prior to Adam was an animal in my view, and my claim is that animal souls are fallen angels. Otherwise, you end up with a God, supposedly maximally kind, allowing innocent species to suffer for, say, 200 million years at least. I don't know why anyone would prefer a position that casts aspersions on the goodness of God.

HEBREWS 12:7
Suffering is part of your training; God is treating you as his sons. Has there ever been any son whose father did not train him?

 

[martymonster]

HEBREWS 12:7
Suffering is part of your training; God is treating you as his sons. Has there ever been any son whose father did not train him?

I agree with you here, but what about the rest of humanity?

 

[JacksBratt]

LOL. The problem of evil is nonsense? Chistianity 101 is a good idea, but History 101 and Philosophy 101 might actually be useful as well. Historically, the problem of evil is the atheist's number one objection to the existence of God. From the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
"The primary argument for atheism [is] the argument from evil".

The "question" of God being evil is nonsense to Christians. I understand that non believers will be drawn into this facade by the enemy. However, to argue it on a Christian forum is surprising at the very least.

I am convinced that my own brother accepted Christ as Lord as a kid. But he lost touch with his faith as grew old and his heart has grown cold. I hold out hope that some small part of his heart still has salvation, but the problem of evil seems to be his main objection to the existence of God. He can't seem to get past it. He thought there was no solution but he was surprised when I explained to him my understanding of God. He hasn't come back yet but I'm seeing signs of hope.

I hope and pray that your brother comprehends what you have told him and understands the truth of God and the gospel.

I know a Christian girl who tried to commit suicide in her 20's because she couldn't reconcile a supposedly good God with the existence of evil.

Anytime anyone takes their own life, it is sad. The enemy deceives like no other.

Not on Protestant assumptions anyway. In the Protestant and Catholic view, all men are born guilty by representation on account of Adam's sin.

I'm protestant. My understanding is that we are born to sin... When we are in the womb and when we are born.. what are we guilty of? Nothing.. but 100% guarantee that we will sin in the future.

Even when children do sin.. we all see it... they know that they shouldn't take the toy or extra cookie or push their little brother.. but they do. The knowledge of good and evil is written on our hearts.. it's in our DNA.

However, until we are of a mental capacity to comprehend that we are sinners and that our punishment is death.. then how can we be held accountable?

If someone has never played soccer before and picks up the ball to run with it.... You stop them and explain and do not penalize them... they were ignorant of their crime.

So, no, we are not born guilty.. but born with the undeniable fact that we will sin.

You're skating over the larger question as to why an infinitely self-sufficient being would need that kind of pleasure

Did you say "pleasure"? What "pleasure"? God loves every single one of us.. If you were born and lived your life without sin.. as Christ did... you would go directly to heaven.... bar none.. But.. we all sin...

God does not take pleasure in this.... He sacrificed His own sun to pay for my sin...

Where on earth did you get the idea that God gets pleasure from this?

And then you punish 100 billion people for the sin of Adam? What sort of monster do you think God is?

He doesn't punish me for Adam's sin... He punishes me for my sin. Sin came into the world through Adam but I sinned myself.. I am guilty myself... I must pay the penalty myself. Christ died for me.. I accept that or not.

And, He is so loving that I don't even have to do anything to get salvation other than admit that I am a sinner...

Deny that I am a sinner. Deny Christ's work on the cross. Deny that Jesus is your savior. Deny that Christ is who He said He was and did what the bible says He did... and then why would you want to go live with Him for eternity.

Except our hearts are so hardened and polluted by this awful world and sinful nature that such might be impossible without special grace from the Holy Spirit. You're not doing very well here, in terms of theodicy.

I'm not a theologian... but I understand the gospel. It's not "special" grace.. It's just God's grace... Giving me something I don't deserve..(salvation) AND.. Mercy... not giving me something I really do deserve. (death)

Hardly. Why not show kindness from the outset, or abstain from making us at all? I would have accepted one of those options, if it were up to me.

You would rather have never been created.. than have to (oh the horror) admit that you sinned and ask for the salvation offered to you at no cost?

I cannot believe that.

AND... He did show kindness from the onset.. He gave them paradise to live in...

The majority of atheists (including my own brother) make that claim, and it 's clearly not preposterous. You are evidently in denial - and if tomorrow you found out that your salvation wasn't secure (hypothetically speaking), you'd be the first to suspect the possibility of monstrosity in such theodicy.

You should never assume what someone else would suspect.

I do know this though.... It is infinitely harder to argue with a backslidden Christian who is trying desperately to prove to themself that there is not a God... Than an atheist who believes that there is no God.

I have met them before... bound and bent on convincing themselves that there is no God when they no for sure that there is.... All they can do, then, is try to find a chink in the armor of God's sound and total righteousness. Of which none exists.

They try to find contradictions in the Bible. Or, flaws in the gospel.. or twist it so that God knew everything therefore we have no free will... etc.. the list goes on....

These are not atheists.... If they were, they wouldn't care... I am not worried about twenty foot saber tooth tigers because they don't exist... Why is a so called atheist worried about anything biblical if it's just a story and God, heaven, hell and Satan don't exits.. Why waste your time?....... Because they know, in their heart... that there is truth...

 

[JAL]

The "question" of God being evil is nonsense to Christians. I understand that non believers will be drawn into this facade by the enemy. However, to argue it on a Christian forum is surprising at the very least.

Ok that reaction doesn't make sense. A religion seen as stupid in the eyes of atheists further hardens their hearts. Do you know why the problem of evil is an issue for atheists? Because Christians have never offered a viable solution. They have only been claiming/pretending to have offered satisfactory answers for 2,000 years (as many have done on this thread) but the atheists themselves are not fooled by these shallow answers. Yes, indeed, Christians are in denial about this issue. There shouldn't even BE a problem of evil today. It should have been been decisively solved 2,000 years ago but unfortunately the theologians are still clinging dogmatically to assumptions that simply do not work. The theologians can fool themselves, they can even fool other Christians, but they are not fooling the unbelievers. Atheists think we're stupid, they think our religion is stupid (just ask my brother), and the apparent stupidity further hardens their hearts.

My sister has cancer. When one of us proposed to pray for her, my brother chimed in, 'Why would I want to pray to your evil God who gave her the disease to the begin with?' He openly declares that our religion is stupid.

This is the correct arena to discuss this issue because Christians need to wake up and smell the coffee.

Even when children do sin.. we all see it... they know that they shouldn't take the toy or extra cookie or push their little brother.. but they do. The knowledge of good and evil is written on our hearts.. it's in our DNA.

However, until we are of a mental capacity to comprehend that we are sinners and that our punishment is death.. then how can we be held accountable?

If someone has never played soccer before and picks up the ball to run with it.... You stop them and explain and do not penalize them... they were ignorant of their crime.

So, no, we are not born guilty.. but born with the undeniable fact that we will sin.

Monstrous. You want to cling to a monstrous view of God indoctrinated into you by irresponsible theologians? Fine. That's hardly necessary but it's your prerogative. There's nothing I can do about it. Meanwhile I'll opt for a view that fully glorifies and fully magnifies Him.

Did you say "pleasure"? What "pleasure"? God loves every single one of us.. If you were born and lived your life without sin.. as Christ did... you would go directly to heaven.... bar none.. But.. we all sin...

God does not take pleasure in this.... He sacrificed His own sun to pay for my sin...

Where on earth did you get the idea that God gets pleasure from this?

Pleasure from what? Sin? God doesn't take pleasure in sin. You seem to be putting words in my mouth and conveniently deflecting my actual rebuttal. Here is what I complained:

"You're skating over the larger question as to why an infinitely self-sufficient being would need that kind of pleasure."

Meaning the pleasure of creating us to fellowship with us, obviously at the great expense of sacrificing His own Son.

He doesn't punish me for Adam's sin... He punishes me for my sin. Sin came into the world through Adam but I sinned myself.. I am guilty myself... I must pay the penalty myself. Christ died for me.. I accept that or not.

But by your own words, Adam's sin is causal to your sin! How then are you not getting punished for Adam's sin? Sorry your position doesn't make sense. You're equivocating.

And, He is so loving that I don't even have to do anything to get salvation other than admit that I am a sinner...

But that's not easy to do if a man has a heart-hardening sinful nature passed down from Adam. Without special help from the Holy Spirit, he'll probably never repent.

Deny that I am a sinner. Deny Christ's work on the cross. Deny that Jesus is your savior. Deny that Christ is who He said He was and did what the bible says He did... and then why would you want to go live with Him for eternity.

Huh? Where have I denied any of this? Aren't you just putting words in my mouth as a pretense of winning the debate? Isn't this commonly called a strawman argument?

I'm not a theologian... but I understand the gospel. It's not "special" grace.. It's just God's grace... Giving me something I don't deserve..(salvation) AND.. Mercy... not giving me something I really do deserve. (death)

You don't see any sign of special grace being needed? Anyone can come to the gospel by simple choice? If that's your view, I'm not quite sure about it. Jesus said:
""No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

You would rather have never been created.. than have to (oh the horror) admit that you sinned and ask for the salvation offered to you at no cost?

I cannot believe that.

Believe it.

AND... He did show kindness from the onset.. He gave them paradise to live in...

That's not the issue. The issue is maximal kindness and irreproachable conduct at all times. A leader who visits the sins of one man upon huge populations is hardly irreproachable. And to suggest that God behaves this way contradicts Eze 18.

These are not atheists.... If they were, they wouldn't care... I am not worried about twenty foot saber tooth tigers because they don't exist... Why is a so called atheist worried about anything biblical if it's just a story and God, heaven, hell and Satan don't exits.. Why waste your time?....... Because they know, in their heart... that there is truth...

I'll agree that for the atheist, there are many barriers to entry. Let's not making it any harder for them. And let's not cling to a viewpoint that, when extrapolated, casts doubt on the unqualified benevolence of God.

 

[JacksBratt]

Ok that reaction doesn't make sense. A religion seen as stupid in the eyes of atheists further hardens their hearts. Do you know why the problem of evil is an issue for atheists? Because Christians have never offered a viable solution. They have only been claiming/pretending to have offered satisfactory answers for 2,000 years (as many have done on this thread) but the atheists themselves are not fooled by these shallow answers. Yes, indeed, Christians are in denial about this issue. There shouldn't even BE a problem of evil today. It should have been been decisively solved 2,000 years ago but unfortunately the theologians are still clinging dogmatically to assumptions that simply do not work. The theologians can fool themselves, they can even fool other Christians, but they are not fooling the unbelievers. Atheists think we're stupid, they think our religion is stupid (just ask my brother), and the apparent stupidity further hardens their hearts.

Of course atheists think we are stupid... Does the bible not say that they are blind? They cannot see the truth... SO, you can side with them... or try to explain to them... but.. most are to prideful in their self determined intellectual superiority to humble themselves and learn.

My sister has cancer. When one of us proposed to pray for her, my brother chimed in, 'Why would I want to pray to your evil God who gave her the disease to the begin with?' He openly declares that our religion is stupid.

So, now God gave your sister cancer... and you go along with this mind set?

This is the correct arena to discuss this issue because Christians need to wake up and smell the coffee.

Christians are sitting comfortably sipping a nice cup of coffee... Atheists don't believe that there is even a coffee bean or boiling water.

Monstrous.

Explain what is monstrous.

Meaning the pleasure of creating us to fellowship with us, obviously at the great expense of sacrificing His own Son.

Sorry, I cannot follow your train of thought here.

But by your own words, Adam's sin is causal to your sin!

How is it "casual"?

How then are you not getting punished for Adam's sin? Sorry your position doesn't make sense. You're equivocating.
But that's not easy to do if a man has a heart-hardening sinful nature passed down from Adam. Without special help from the Holy Spirit, he'll probably never repent.

Again, I cannot follow your train of thought or deductions.

Huh? Where have I denied any of this? Aren't you just putting words in my mouth as a pretense of winning the debate? Isn't this commonly called a strawman argument?

Ya... we're on totally different tracks here.

You don't see any sign of special grace being needed? Anyone can come to the gospel by simple choice? If that's your view, I'm not quite sure about it. Jesus said:
""No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

If there is "special" grace... where is the "not special" grace?

Believe it.

This explains a lot.

That's not the issue. The issue is maximal kindness and irreproachable conduct at all times. A leader who visits the sins of one man upon huge populations is hardly irreproachable. And to suggest that God behaves this way contradicts Eze 18.

I'll agree that for the atheist, there are many barriers to entry. Let's not making it any harder for them. And let's not cling to a viewpoint that, when extrapolated, casts doubt on the unqualified benevolence of God.

Again.. I think our trains are on very different tracks...