Islam is better than its adherents

Philothei · Jun 20, 2008

Montalban said:
The ideals of Islam are evil

Muhammed their 'example' of man had 'approval' from their god for under-age sex, murder of critics, lying for your religion (when it's expedient) etc.

I agree that a religion that has violent tenets of faith is defenately evil and dangerous. I do not think there is anything more to add...other than praying real hard that people who live in the West would not let themselves be mislead by the phenomenogical idea of "peaceful minority" facade that knows no evil.
Truly their god is rather "materialistic" in his reward, and rather violent in his conversion.. by his sword. I truly cannot imagine how any intelligent human being can even try to see that ethos as valid...and justified.

On the other hand I am not suprised judging the level of commitment to the value system of our christian faith. The deterioration of our own faith and the inclination to relativism leaves us with no ressitance to what is "no truth" as it opens the door to any kind of dangerous syncretistic ideas and practices under the umbrella of a society that has no way of knowing where it is headed or where it has started. Truly sad...

Accepting a god as in Islam is a sign of our deteriorating belief system ...and a sign of an uncivil society IMO....

français · Jun 20, 2008

Philothei said:
Accepting a god as in Islam is a sign of our deteriorating belief system ...and a sign of an uncivil society IMO....

the Old Testament is full of violence and hate. It even calls people "dogs" and other derogatory names. It says that one should not spare the rod against their child. It is full of numerous stories where innocent people are killed, cities are captured and taken over, etc.

Believing in your pagan religion(xianity), and your gross, immoral, inhumane Old Testament as being inspired by God, is deteriorating and a sign of uneducation, and uncivilness.

See how offensive that can be? I bet that when you read what I just put, you were offended and upset. Well, that is what you are making others feel when you say such unnecessary comments, especially when you know nothing about Islam.

Philothei · Jun 20, 2008

Dear Francais,
I am not ignorant to Islam. FYI I am a grad of Seminary. I might not have studied it verse by verse but defenately not at all ignorant. I am not upset as to your ignorance of Christianity. Judging Christianity through the revelation of the Old Testament is not new to me. God as revealed in the Old Testament may seem to you all that barbaric etc. God revealed his "economia" (divine plan) slowly through the race of the Jews. He gave them the 10 commandments to live by. The Old Testament as well the NT are not texts to be taken literally. Unlike Islam we do not believe that the "hand of God" wrote them... or handed them to us. Old Testament is permiated by human history and a God as viewed by the Jews, the human element is inevitable. God's salvific plan continued with the incarnation of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who taught that we are not to be subjected by the Law of men but by the love of God who teaches Love. (how is that for barbaric??) With Pentecost the Paraklete is send to us as we are living in the Eschaton( the last days) awaiting for the second coming of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ to complete God's plan the salvation of those who are His and belong to His kingdom.

What in Christianity makes it "imoral" or "gross"? How does this compare to a god who promises and legitemizes imoral acts in the eschaton?

I stand by what I said... the deterioration of Christian ethos in society is obvious in the rise of "ancient religions" and Islam.

yaqovzadeek · Jun 20, 2008

Philothei said:
Dear Francais,
I am not ignorant to Islam. FYI I am a grad of Seminary. I might not have studied it verse by verse but defenately not at all ignorant..

Wow a grad of seminary
Talk to me baby , may be we can discuss religion and theology.

Now wait a minute being a grad of seminary does not mean you know about Islam.I know of Christian scholars who were taught total negative things about Islam, they only learnt the truth about Islam when they studied it from genuine sources and came to Islam. Most grads of seminary are taught missionary tactics. Do you really think they would teach you the real truth about Islam in Christian missionaries so you can leave Christianity for Islam.

Philothei said:
I am not upset as to your ignorance of Christianity. Judging Christianity through the revelation of the Old Testament is not new to me. God as revealed in the Old Testament may seem to you all that barbaric etc. God revealed his "economia" (divine plan) slowly through the race of the Jews. He gave them the 10 commandments to live by. The Old Testament as well the NT are not texts to be taken literally...

I am happy you said that so we are clear Jesus as a son of God is not to be taken literally.jesus was not the literal son of God but a prophet of God

Philothei said:
Unlike Islam we do not believe that the "hand of God" wrote them... or handed them to us. ..

See it shows already how little you know about Islam. The hand of God did not write the Quran or the Torah or the Injil.God created the pen, that was the first thing he created and he told it to write.So there is a big difference from the truth andf what they teach you about islam in seminary.May comparative religion Teacher went to hartford seminary, he was saying how there were attemps of disuading him to convert to Islam, as he was a Christian before

peace
yaqovzadeek
aka James the just

français · Jun 20, 2008

Philothei said:
Dear Francais,
I am not ignorant to Islam. FYI I am a grad of Seminary. I might not have studied it verse by verse but defenately not at all ignorant. I am not upset as to your ignorance of Christianity. Judging Christianity through the revelation of the Old Testament is not new to me. God as revealed in the Old Testament may seem to you all that barbaric etc. God revealed his "economia" (divine plan) slowly through the race of the Jews. He gave them the 10 commandments to live by. The Old Testament as well the NT are not texts to be taken literally. Unlike Islam we do not believe that the "hand of God" wrote them... or handed them to us. Old Testament is permiated by human history and a God as viewed by the Jews, the human element is inevitable. God's salvific plan continued with the incarnation of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who taught that we are not to be subjected by the Law of men but by the love of God who teaches Love. (how is that for barbaric??) With Pentecost the Paraklete is send to us as we are living in the Eschaton( the last days) awaiting for the second coming of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ to complete God's plan the salvation of those who are His and belong to His kingdom.

What in Christianity makes it "imoral" or "gross"? How does this compare to a god who promises and legitemizes imoral acts in the eschaton?

I stand by what I said... the deterioration of Christian ethos in society is obvious in the rise of "ancient religions" and Islam.

Being a grad in a seminary does not mean you know a lot about Islam. I have met an ex-Orthodox Priest who learned about Islam in the monestary to an extent, but did not learn truly what Islam taught, etc until much later.. Which, ended up in him converting to Islam lol. He has an interesting story.. If you have paltalk, I can refer you to him.

Nevertheless, many seminaries do indeed teach a pretty basic course on Islam, so I am not going to question your knowledge on Islam, as I don't know, and it really is not my right to tell you what you do and don't know!

As for immoralities in the Bible.. Well, the OT is full of them. Prophecies of rape, murder of children, condoning hitting children, etc. Perhaps my interpretation of these verses may be wrong, which in this case please send me a PM and I can submit to you some verses I have a problem with, and you can address it. Hey, I would much rather have a positive view of Christianity than a negative!

Philothei · Jun 20, 2008

Wow a grad of seminary
Talk to me baby

eh.... I am not a "baby" and I do not appreciate the attitute but then again that proves a point does it?

, may be we can discuss religion and theology.

Why is it suddenly so interesting to you Is beyond me....Maybe the fact that I am a woman makes a difference to you? That right there puts me in a "disadvantage" according to Islam? I am sure it does...

Now wait a minute being a grad of seminary does not mean you know about Islam.I know of Christian scholars who were taught total negative things about Islam, they only learnt the truth about Islam when they studied it from genuine sources and came to Islam. Most grads of seminary are taught missionary tactics.

They teach us to recognize the signs of religions who act as "cults". In the case of Islam we do recognize it to be a sincretistic religion (a rather new one)... that borrows from others....a kind of a potpouri of religions. Our text books were nothing but 'mainstream', no polemical source was taught in our seminary... but what is the fear? You do sound rather defensive. Eastern Orthodox Christians need no reason to be taught missionary tactics since we do not believe in "door to door" missionary activity.

Do you really think they would teach you the real truth about Islam in Christian missionaries so you can leave Christianity for Islam.

Yes, since they do not use polemical sources. They are not "afraid" that we may "convert" to Islam. Knowing the truth sets you free. We are not the ones who persucute and put people on kill lists if they "convert" out of christianity...You do that.

I am happy you said that so we are clear Jesus as a son of God is not to be taken literally.jesus was not the literal son of God but a prophet of God
See it shows already how little you know about Islam.

I never said that I said quite the opposite. Do not put words in my mouth there.

The hand of God did not write the Quran or the Torah or the Injil.God created the pen, that was the first thing he created and he told it to write

lol.... So He TOLD it what to right... how is that any different of what I said? go figure..

.

So there is a big difference from the truth andf what they teach you about islam in seminary.

You still have not said anything they "did not teach me" at the seminary...

May comparative religion Teacher went to hartford seminary, he was saying how there were attemps of disuading him to convert to Islam, as he was a Christian before

Of course if you know your fellow Christian is about to go into the pit I would not imagine anyone wanted to push him in ....rather trying to pull him out of it.... Do not tell me that you do not do the same? Again your converts to Christianity cannot even "visit" their countries for the fear of being killed....

peace
yaqovzadeek
aka James the just

[/QUOTE]

God bless,
Philothei

Montalban · Jun 20, 2008

français;47510543 said:
the Old Testament is full of violence and hate.

Still, Moslems want to discuss by way of evasion. Don't deal with Islam, switch this to an attack on the OT.

Even going off-topic you're still wrong.

You may have noticed Chrisitans eat pork, despite the OT having rules against it. This just might have made you think that Christians don't follow certain examples of the OT.

Try working from that point on.

Montalban · Jun 20, 2008

Philothei said:
eh.... I am not a "baby" and I do not appreciate the attitute but then again that proves a point does it?

Even the fact that they can't keep on topic proves a point.

I've said this all along about Islam and how it can't stand examination.

Moslems here jump to discussing anything else other than their own faith

Philothei · Jun 20, 2008

Being a grad in a seminary does not mean you know a lot about Islam

.
Never said that or claim it...

I have met an ex-Orthodox Priest who learned about Islam in the monestary to an extent, but did not learn truly what Islam taught, etc until much later.. Which, ended up in him converting to Islam lol. He has an interesting story.. If you have paltalk, I can refer you to him.

You can save yourself the trouble... I am not interested in knowing the details of that "conversion" That is between him and God... I am sad about it since I do beleive that he is a lost soul and would like to pray for him to return to the truth and Christ. Since we are compairing "notes" about conversions... I can point you to Muftis (Immans?) who converted to Christianity shall we call this even.. This hardly gets you any "points" to Eastern Orthodoxy...lol..

Nevertheless, many seminaries do indeed teach a pretty basic course on Islam, so I am not going to question your knowledge on Islam, as I don't know, and it really is not my right to tell you what you do and don't know!

then why bother... with putting me down and declaring to others my 'ignorance" about Islam if you cannot prove it?....that's pretty hillarius...

As for immoralities in the Bible.. Well, the OT is full of them. Prophecies of rape, murder of children, condoning hitting children, etc. Perhaps my interpretation of these verses may be wrong, which in this case please send me a PM and I can submit to you some verses I have a problem with, and you can address it.

Sure feel free I will try to answer you to my best ability. If your intentions are real you should be able to benefit from it...

Hey, I would much rather have a positive view of Christianity than a negative!

I am glad to see that you are open to undestand Christianity... and I am supriced that so many others were talking to you about it and now you decided suddenly to "have a positive" view... I would be interested to know what made you decide to do that?

Thekla · Jun 20, 2008

yaqovzadeek said:
Wow a grad of seminary
Talk to me baby , may be we can discuss religion and theology.

care for a lump of misogyny with your tea ?

Cirke · Jun 21, 2008

peaceful soul said:
As mentioned before, the reasons for covering in the OT and NT are not parallel to the Islamic reasons.

What you need to understand is that Islam incorporated some of these cultural norms into its religion; therefore, these practices are no longer culturally relative to Muslims. The other things to look at is that even if something is not religiously obligated, the fact that Islam allows or tolerates it puts into question whether Islam actually is against it.

Thanks for the reply peaceful soul. Now it makes sense. I got it

that would mean like in Christianity whatever practices that are cultural they have fallen of use like women covering in Church.. Yes, that would make sense...

Cirke · Jun 21, 2008

sorry double post

peaceful soul · Jun 22, 2008

Cirke said:
Thanks for the reply peaceful soul. Now it makes sense. I got it

that would mean like in Christianity whatever practices that are cultural they have fallen of use like women covering in Church.. Yes, that would make sense...

Yes, we are speaking the same language, Cirke.. There are debates among Christians pertaining to the covering, even today. Some think that we should still do it because the scriptures seem to justify it. Sometimes it is difficult to decide since the letters to the various churches had elements of rules or regulations of that time only. Which ones do we carry forward is not always easy to decide.

Cirke · Jun 27, 2008

True It is partly because Christians (at least in the Eastern Orthodox tradition) do not fall into "grouping" of conservative versus liberal since Orthodoxy as far as I understand it... is beyond school of "thoughts" and classifications as fundementalist and/or liberal... The church was one and thus did not adhere to liberals or conservatives... the boundaries were not as clear cut. From my understanding they were pretty moderate.

Peace,
Cirke

Montalban · Jun 27, 2008

Cirke said:
True It is partly because Christians (at least in the Eastern Orthodox tradition) do not fall into "grouping" of conservative versus liberal since Orthodoxy as far as I understand it... is beyond school of "thoughts" and classifications as fundementalist and/or liberal... The church was one and thus did not adhere to liberals or conservatives... the boundaries were not as clear cut. From my understanding they were pretty moderate.

Peace,
Cirke

We do have divisions, such as on possible re-union with Rome

Nooj · Jun 29, 2008

Montalban said:
I don't think that there are any good parts in Islam. The notion of 'good' needs to be examined, if that won't side-track you thread.

Nothing is good of itself. It's only good, if it's from God.

Yes, I see you've expressed that view in the What I respect in other faiths thread.

I gather you think Christianity is good. But have you thought about whether God might have given 'good' to another religion as well? Take Judaism for example, which you seem to respect a bit. Granted, you'd disagree with Jews on many points, but they also hold true to the 'old' covenant. Is there nothing redeemable in that religion? Is there nothing from God AKA good in Judaism?

And is there similarly nothing 'good' in Islam? Can God work some parts of his message in other religions?

Montalban said:
And thus it's easy at being adept at this because there's so many bad things.

But you've simply created a thread which still needs to look at the ideals of Islam - you ask this again in your challenge just put to me... except you only want to look at 'good' ideals.

Yes, because you and I are well aware of the downsides to Islam. There are however things I consider 'good' in Islam. Some of these precepts, some Muslims do not seem to be following. That is what I want to discuss.

You criticise Islam and Muslims for being false and barbaric. I'm saying you can criticise Muslims for another reason, that is they're not following Islam as devoutly as they should.

peaceful soul said:
Islam claims to create holy people by preventing them from doing certain sins such as drinking alcohol, stealing and practicing homosexuality. The problem is that such punishments as cutting off limbs and putting homosexuals to death for their homosexuality are not good.

At the risk of derailing the thread, why is cutting off limbs and putting homosexuals to death not good. I have my own reasons. You on the other hand get your morality from the Bible. So please cite me the verse and chapter of the Bible where cutting off limbs and putting homosexuals to death are called not good.

peaceful soul said:
You can't honestly or should I say, truly investigate the good things without also weighing the bad things since the complete system depends upon both as a true representation of its moral/spiritual standing. That is my observation in a nutshell.

I think the weight of investigation in the NC forums has been vastly towards the bad things of Islam. Surely it's time to investigate the good things.

Montalban · Jun 29, 2008

Nooj said:
Yes, I see you've expressed that view in the What I respect in other faiths thread.

I gather you think Christianity is good.

I don't think that simply branding something Christian makes it good. I hope I didn't give that impression

Nooj said:
But have you thought about whether God might have given 'good' to another religion as well? Take Judaism for example, which you seem to respect a bit. Granted, you'd disagree with Jews on many points, but they also hold true to the 'old' covenant. Is there nothing redeemable in that religion? Is there nothing from God AKA good in Judaism?

I don't know what you mean by redeemable in this sense

The Orthodox position might seem contradictory, but here it is
a) Orthdoxy holds the fullness of the truth of Christ - we know it to be true
b) ultimately however we don't judge other people, because God does that, and we're not that presumptive (if that's a word in this context)

Nooj said:
And is there similarly nothing 'good' in Islam? Can God work some parts of his message in other religions?

He could have, but he didn't. He said this when He said "I am the way the truth and the life". He didn't say "I am one of the ways" Further to that what Islam teaches as 'good' is generally the antithesis of Christianity.
Yes, because you and I are well aware of the downsides to Islam.

Nooj said:
There are however things I consider 'good' in Islam. Some of these precepts, some Muslims do not seem to be following. That is what I want to discuss.

But then we must judge the believers against their faith.

Nooj said:
You criticise Islam and Muslims for being false and barbaric. I'm saying you can criticise Muslims for another reason, that is they're not following Islam as devoutly as they should.

Well I belive that when Moslems act 'good' it is despite Islam, not because of it.

Nooj said:
At the risk of derailing the thread, why is cutting off limbs and putting homosexuals to death not good. I have my own reasons. You on the other hand get your morality from the Bible.

No. I get my morality from the Church which created the Bible (Protestants would disagree)

Nooj said:
So please cite me the verse and chapter of the Bible where cutting off limbs and putting homosexuals to death are called not good.

There's too many negatives in the sentence to know what it is you're asking me for

Nooj said:
I think the weight of investigation in the NC forums has been vastly towards the bad things of Islam. Surely it's time to investigate the good things.

There aren't any good things per se in Islam.

But from your frame-work you might want to consider that it is claimed that they stopped female infanticide.

Philothei · Jun 29, 2008

Well I believe that when Moslems act 'good' it is despite Islam, not because of it.

I agree that Muslims do act "better" than their religion at many instances and that is where I see that the true God is manifested. There is no doubt in my mind that they have "distorted" God's revelation... as the fruits of their religion did "brought" forth war and distruction among people's of other faiths and in their own people...

So please cite me the verse and chapter of the Bible where cutting off limbs and putting homosexuals to death are called not good.

Maybe you need to be reminded of Christ's words during the stoning of the adulteress woman??

Maybe the topic of another thread?

Islam_mulia · Jun 29, 2008

Philothei said:
Maybe you need to be reminded of Christ's words during the stoning of the adulteress woman??

Most ancient manuscripts do not have this story. It is possibly a late interpolation.

Philothei · Jun 29, 2008

Oh...please spare me the "investigation" ... according to who? which manuscripts?

Islam is better than its adherents

Love never fails

Atheist/CA-Bloc Québécois/US-Democrat

Love never fails

Veteran

Atheist/CA-Bloc Québécois/US-Democrat

Love never fails

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Love never fails

Thekla

Guest

Member

Member

Senior Veteran

Member

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Love never fails

Senior Veteran

Love never fails

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency