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Islam doesn't condone terror

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StThomasMore

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The changing in verses from the hard to soft kinda reminds me of how some Muslims seem to act. For instance, they will take you in under their honor and roof, and drink tea and laugh with you, and the next day that same person who drank tea with you and laughed with you accuses you of being a spy and is sawing your head off with a blunt small knife all of a sudden.

It seems to be a very changeable religion. I remember one guy who served in Afghanistan once said the tribal Muslims are extremely nice to you and are some of the most cordial warmest people you can meet, but then a few seconds later they could all of a sudden have a AK pointed towards your head.
 
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Montalban

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The changing in verses from the hard to soft kinda reminds me of how some Muslims seem to act. For instance, they will take you in under their honor and roof, and drink tea and laugh with you, and the next day that same person who drank tea with you and laughed with you accuses you of being a spy and is sawing your head off with a blunt small knife all of a sudden.

It seems to be a very changeable religion. I remember one guy who served in Afghanistan once said the tribal Muslims are extremely nice to you and are some of the most cordial warmest people you can meet, but then a few seconds later they could all of a sudden have a AK pointed towards your head.

It's a religion given over to passions
 
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Montalban

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2:106
Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof.

16:101
And when We put a revelation in place of (another) revelation, - and Allah knoweth best what He revealeth - they say: Lo! thou art but inventing. Most of them know not.

So they all agree? When I was a Muslim I never considered the "peaceful verses" abrogated.
Well it's true that not everyone knows all about their own faith. When I was a Catholic I believed (wrongly) that the Immaculate Conception was about Jesus' conception.

However it's a standard of Islamic belief, else you'd have to explain how these two very conflicting verses can be reconciled.
Who are "they"? You act as if Muslims are some monolithic block that agree 100% on the intricacies of abrogation and what has been abrogated.
Well Moslem, by the very fact we're using a collective noun stands for something. I agree that there's some variation within that. There is however some commonality, else the term would be meaningless.
There is just as much diversity of opinion on issues of Quranic exegesis among Muslims as there is divergence of opinion on Biblical exegesis among Christians. Some Muslims are Quran only and reject the hadith, some Muslims tend to use a more allegorical manner of interpretation, some Muslims are fundamentalist extremists, some Muslims are liberals, some Muslims are conservatives, etc.
Show me Islamic exegesis that there's been no abrogation.
I'm not so sure all the Muslims who support the death of apostates (and that's certainly not all Muslims) necessarily believe the verse calling for "no compulsion in religion" to have been abrogated. They just justify to themselves that killing apostates isn't actually "compulsion in religion". More tortured logic if anything.
So calling for someone's death unless they change faith is not a compulsion?

Why's it 'tortured logic'?

The fact that Moslems imposed a tax and special rules on Christians and Jews is another 'compulsion' based on religion.

You know that Moslems aren't supposed to take non-Moslems even as close friends?
Translations of the Qur'an, Chapter 5:
AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE, THE TABLE SPREAD)
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
CRCC: Center For Muslim-Jewish Engagement: Resources: Religious Texts

Now, if you think that this verse is taken out of context, let's hear from some Moslem experts
"Question: Does not brotherhood extend to all of mankind because it is established that Aadam was the forefather of everyone?

Response: This is not so. There is no doubt that everyone is from the offspring of Aadam but we do not say, "This is my brother," when referring to a disbeliever meaning by that within the brotherhood of man. We can only refer to him as brother when there is a relationship by descent or lineage.
MISCELLANEOUS \ Muslim Minorities \ The brotherhood of man

Sunni commentator Ibn Kathir explained that "believers that fear for their safety from the unbelievers... are allowed to show friendship to the unbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly".
Taqiyya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Where Christians teach love thy neighbour, Islam does not.
 
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Montalban

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So they all agree? When I was a Muslim I never considered the "peaceful verses" abrogated.

I wish there were more.

I used to work with a Turkish lady. She'd tell me about her husband (also a Moslem) drank beer. Turkey (and Indonesia (another Islamic nation) have breweries.

It would be wrong for me to say "Islam allows drinking of beer" based on the actions of some.

You apply (I am sure) this same logic no doubt to 'so-called' Moslem extremists, that the 'few' aren't representative of the whole.

We need to look not at the individuals but the faith itself and see what it stands for.

Islam allows Jihad. In fact it requires it.

Many make the statement that it refers to 'struggle' not war, but it's so synonymous with war as to make it stand for it.
 
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Kufffar

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I've been reading the first few pages and find the topic tiresome. Christians with faith in Christ have a knowledge that surpasses a muslim's knowledge. Our knowledge is more costly than Gold and it's a knowledge that means the difference between life eternal thru resurrection and death.
 
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AskTheFamily

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Now, if you think that this verse is taken out of context, let's hear from some Moslem experts

The best way to know what a verse means is to see what Quran itself states and let it explain it's verses. The word Awliya can be translated to friend, ally, master, authority, guardian, and other words.

Else where in Quran, we read:

[SIZE=-1][Shakir 60:9] Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.[/SIZE]

This is clear friendship with the people whom didn't drive them out of their homes were not forbidden.

Therefore the meaning of the word awliya in the verse you quoted has to be other then friend.
 
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Montalban

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I've been reading the first few pages and find the topic tiresome. Christians with faith in Christ have a knowledge that surpasses a muslim's knowledge. Our knowledge is more costly than Gold and it's a knowledge that means the difference between life eternal thru resurrection and death.

You're more than welcome to address any specific effors
 
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Montalban

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The best way to know what a verse means is to see what Quran itself states and let it explain it's verses. The word Awliya can be translated to friend, ally, master, authority, guardian, and other words.

Else where in Quran, we read:

[SIZE=-1][Shakir 60:9] Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.[/SIZE]

This is clear friendship with the people whom didn't drive them out of their homes were not forbidden.

Therefore the meaning of the word awliya in the verse you quoted has to be other then friend.


I cited Islamic experts on this.
 
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AskTheFamily

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I cited Islamic experts on this.

Brotherhood:

007.073

And to Samood We sent their brother Salih. He said: O my people! serve Allah, you have no god other than Him; clear proof indeed has come to you from your Lord; this is (as) Allah's she-camel for you-- a sign, therefore leave her alone to pasture on Allah's earth, and do not touch her with any harm, otherwise painful chastisement will overtake you.

Maybe you should let Quran speak for itself - instead of relying on people you think are experts.
 
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Montalban

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Brotherhood:

007.073

And to Samood We sent their brother Salih. He said: O my people! serve Allah, you have no god other than Him; clear proof indeed has come to you from your Lord; this is (as) Allah's she-camel for you-- a sign, therefore leave her alone to pasture on Allah's earth, and do not touch her with any harm, otherwise painful chastisement will overtake you.

Brother in Islam means fellow Moslem
Maybe you should let Quran speak for itself - instead of relying on people you think are experts.

I'm thinking "He can't be serious". What makes your opinion right over experts?
 
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AskTheFamily

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Brother in Islam means fellow Moslem

Samood were not Muslims, they in fact disbelieved in the message, yet the Quran calls Salih their `brother`
I'm thinking "He can't be serious". What makes your opinion right over experts?

What makes you think their opinion is correct when Quran says something else then what they say?
 
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Kufffar

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You're more than welcome to address any specific effors
Don't care to quote for arguments sake nor discuss topics only to run in circles and never get anywhere. Its useless to reason with the unreasonable. Nor do I care to quote biblical material only to have a muslim change its intended original meaning. It's best to simply wait out for the messiah's return who will do away with wickedness.
 
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Montalban

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Samood were not Muslims, they in fact disbelieved in the message, yet the Quran calls Salih their `brother`
I also accept that you're allowed to be nice to people you call to Islam. Is Salih a convert?

What makes you think their opinion is correct when Quran says something else then what they say?

Because it doesn't say you can't call people to your faith. He's called 'brother' when he's sent to convert them.
 
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Montalban

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Don't care to quote for arguments sake nor discuss topics only to run in circles and never get anywhere. Its useless to reason with the unreasonable. Nor do I care to quote biblical material only to have a muslim change its intended original meaning. It's best to simply wait out for the messiah's return who will do away with wickedness.

So you're going to tell people off on a basis you're not willing to discuss. Okay
 
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