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Islam doesn't condone terror

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razeontherock

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I'm from middle-east myself

Hi, and welcome to CF! I started this thread, and haven't looked at it in over a month. This "place" amazes me in that I can come in contact w/ people from such different backgrounds, that otherwise I might not, ever. You and Ishraqiyun seem to be following up on my original intent, and I thank you :)

There will be many questions - please forgive my ignorance. The world is a big place! The perspectives gained from opposite sides of it truly do give different meanings to seeing the same things ...
 
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StThomasMore

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On the contrary, political correctness is a universal phenomenon. And not an absolute either, but one relative to time, place and spirit of the times. It's neither leftist, fascist, socialist or communist.

Would you object to public glorification of 9/11, the Holocaust, Stalin's liquidation of capitalists, and in any way shun those who'd do it? If the answer is even the slightest yes, you too practice political correctness.


I don't think genocide or mass killing is dependent on the culture or the times. Killing is killing and everyone in their God given conscience knows its wrong because it is written in the heart by divine law.
So being against the glorification of killing and genocide more has to do with inner intuition than political correctness.

Political correctness is more saying something like gay marriage is not wrong out of worry of being labeled a bigot by the media and political system.
 
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Ishraqiyun

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Than please explain the difference between national-socialism and faith-socialism..
I'm not sure what faith socialism is.

Like the fact that many (some 40% in some polls) of Muslims in the west want to impose Sharia in the West? Is that perhaps the Islam you are referring to?
Can you link to the poll ? I don't see what it has to do with terrorism though? Supporting sharia law = terrorism?
 
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FRM48

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On the contrary, political correctness is a universal phenomenon. And not an absolute either, but one relative to time, place and spirit of the times. It's neither leftist, fascist, socialist or communist.

Would you object to public glorification of 9/11, the Holocaust, Stalin's liquidation of capitalists, and in any way shun those who'd do it? If the answer is even the slightest yes, you too practice political correctness.

By that definition even Islam is guilty of P.C. Don't say anything against the prophet or allah.Don't draw a cartoon of mohammed.Lol nice definition Henry.^_^
 
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plenary

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I'm not sure what faith socialism is.
It is in some respects exactly the same, except that it doesn't deal with race but with specific religion. If one wants to understand national-socialism (and thereby faith or religion-socialism) one must understand the pillars of the hells...)
There are three pillars in the hells, which are self-love, egoism and the love to rule others... These are the fundamental characteristics of the devils....
Why? Because these aren't really loves, but types of hatred.

And loving only your own race, or own religion, is self-love... Which is no love at all... Wanting to destroy another race or to dominate over another race or religion, is the love of rule, which is another part of the deep hellish loves... Which is dark, sinister and will bring condemnation.

That is why, in Christian laws, the highest in the heavens is the one who serves, not the one who rules... Because if one wants to rule others, one is not in the heavenly state, but in the hellish state...

The love of self, is the love that breeds egoism and the love to rule.... The love of self is called the devlish love, which leads to the deepest of hells... This can also be called the devlish hatred...
And it gets worse, because as heavenly love has a Son, which is called Truth, also hellish hatred has a son, which is called lie... Which is depicted in the love for the material World (Because the world stands for the lie, just as the heavens stand for Truth)... This is called the satanic characteristic...

(which is Christian doctrine, maybe you can now understand why Jesus is called the "Son of God" and He Himself proclaimed to be The Way, the Truth and the Life.... Because the Son of God and Truth are exactly the same thing, the Word of God made flesh... That is why Christ could resurrect people just by uttering one word... He Is the Master of the Universe, Lord and God almighty... The Father and the Son are one and the same.)

And what did Muhammad proclaim:
While we were in the mosque, Allah's Apostle came out to us and said, "Let us proceed to the Jews." So we went along with him till we reached Bait-al-Midras (a place where the Torah used to be recited and all the Jews of the town used to gather). The Prophet stood up and addressed them, "O Assembly of Jews! Embrace Islam and you will be safe!" The Jews replied, "O Aba-l-Qasim! You have conveyed Allah's message to us." The Prophet said, "That is what I want (from you)." He repeated his first statement for the second time, and they said, "You have conveyed Allah's message, O Aba-l-Qasim." Then he said it for the third time and added, "You should Know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to exile you fro,,, this land, so whoever among you owns some property, can sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle." (See Hadith No. 392, Vol. 4)
Which is a big problem, if one grasps the demonic and satanic loves...

O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty. (9:123)

Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves… (48:29)


Muhammad was indeed the messenger of Allah, but not of God... Because if he had been, he had proclaimed the following:

Luke 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
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Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
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And unto him that smiteth thee on the [one] cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not [to take thy] coat also.
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Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask [them] not again. 31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
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For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
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And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
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And if ye lend [to them] of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
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But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil.
Thus spoke the Lord...
Can you link to the poll ? I don't see what it has to do with terrorism though? Supporting sharia law = terrorism?
Multiculturalism 'drives young Muslims to shun British values' | Mail Online

From the poll:

While only 17 per cent of over-55s said they would prefer to live under Sharia law, that increased to 37 per cent of those aged 16 to 24.
Chopping of limbs because of thievery, is so unjust, one can only weep... Christian law is the exact opposite of this supposedly law of God.
 
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Ishraqiyun

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So you think faith socialism = Islam and we can understand it better by studying National Socialism?

Christian law is the exact opposite of this supposedly law of God.

Jesus (pbuh) didn't set forth any juridical laws and penalties in the first place. It would make more sense to compare it with the Old Testament which does. Is the Old Testament evil?

O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty. (9:123)




This was when permission was given to fight some of the unbelievers who were persecuting and waging war against the Islamic community. If you are a total pacifist I can understand your opposition to it but if you do believe that there is a time to fight in defense I can't see how you could attack them for doing so.
 
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Ishraqiyun

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As for the meaning of "cutting off their hands":

The derivatives that are read in the 2nd verb form (QaTTaA) occur 17 times. This form, which expresses intensity or frequency of the action, is used both to mean physical cutting off [5:33, 7:124, 20:71, 26:49, 13:31] and metaphorical cutting off [2:166, 6:94, 7:160, 7:167, 9:110, 47:15, 47:22, 21:93, 22:19, 23:53] as well as physically cutting/marking [12:31, 12:50]. It is interesting to note that even though 12:31 uses the more intensive verb form and both "cut" and "hands" together, it does not mean "cut off". The less intensive form is used in 5:38.

Secondly, the Arabic word for "hands" (aydi) is often used in The Quran in a metaphorical/metonymical manner [some examples are 2:195, 2:237, 3:3, 3:73, 5:64, 6:93, 8:70, 9:29, 23:88, 28:47, 30:36, 38:45, 48:10, 48:24, 111:1], and often has a meaning of power/means. It should also be noted that this word is in the Arabic plural meaning 3 or more hands, whilst only two people are referenced: the male and the female thief. Some have commented that this plural usage causes problems for the common interpretation of hand cutting.

Thus, it is possible to understand the punishment for thieves in three alternative ways, (1) cutting off their hands, or (2) cutting or marking their hands, or (3) cutting their means to steal, or cutting their hands from committing the crime. It is up to the society to choose one of these meanings or a combination of them depending on the severity of the crime and their ability to enforce the penalty.
 
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plenary

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This was when permission was given to fight some of the unbelievers who were persecuting and waging war against the Islamic community. If you are a total pacifist I can understand your opposition to it but if you do believe that there is a time to fight in defense I can't see how you could attack them for doing so.
No it wasn't... Because it is stated that the infidels should be wiped out to the last...

En even in wartime, that is not the predicament... One should strive to conquer to enemy, when he is evil, not to wipe the enemy out... Which is a statement of hatred in itself.

Only the judgments of God are such, that there was a demise of an entire group of people, such as Sodom and Gomorra and the great flood... Which has all to do with the evil of the people.

And yes, there will be other judgments, which will not be of man, but of God... If certain groups are planning the demise of for example the Jews, it will mean their own demise, as can be read in certain prophetic texts....
 
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StThomasMore

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Uh, what? Of course Islam too is "guilty" of it (as if it would somehow be a crime to). Universal = everyone does it. Everyone includes Islamic communities too.

Do you practice political correctness, or do you truly believe in an "everything goes, and I will accept everything" attitude?


I don't think you have to be politically correct to know that sawing off a POWs head is somehow wrong.
 
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Ishraqiyun

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En even in wartime, that is not the predicament... One should strive to conquer to enemy, when he is evil, not to wipe the enemy out... Which is a statement of hatred in itself.
What do you make of :

"This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys." (1st Sam 15:2-3)


Or Numbers 31:7-18 ?

No it wasn't... Because it is stated that the infidels should be wiped out to the last...
The specific infidels who were waging war against them. The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) also specified the proper behavior in times of war and what would violate the limit. Specifically in the hadith the Prophet (pbuh) said not to kill women, children, and the aged. He also said not to kill pilgrims , people under your protection, or monks and nuns. He also commanded Muslims to protect prisoners of war.

http://ilovemuhammed.com/answering-the-critics/claims-against-islam/59-jihad-in-islam
 
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plenary

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Mankind has been able to corrupt the message of Love of Christ and has murderd, killed and oppressed in the name of love... What does one think will happen with a message which is from Satan himself??
Bukhari:V6B60N475 "Allah's Apostle became sick and could not offer his prayer. A lady came and said, 'Muhammad! I think that your Satan has forsaken you, for I have not seen him with you for two or three nights!' On that Allah revealed: 'By the night when it darkens, your Lord has neither forsaken you, nor hated you.'" [93:1]

Jesus taught light, Muhammad darkness.....
 
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Palermo

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''islam doesnt condone terror''

it must be an irony :D

''islam is religion of peaaacee'' im bored hearing this :S, yeah,its religion of peace,sure,mohammad killed many people in his life and taken their wives,and their children as slaves.there are many hadiths about execution of apostates (especially in bukhrai,such as ''bukhari 52:260,Bukhari 84:57 bukhari 89:271) and verses in quran about discriminating ''others'' such as forcing them to pay jizya(i think this is a humiliation),not be friend with them and slay polytheists whereever you find them,islam condones terrorism in the name of allah ;)

also there are some scholars encouraging jihad and slaying others.also nonmuslims are 2.nd class citizens in sharia-ruled countries
 
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TG123

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The Idea that religion should not be forced on others has very little support in Quran with the exception of some stray verses like 109:6 and 18:29 (which are, Btw, meccan verses.)

Islam wants to dominate the world, says Quran.

3.056 As for those who disbelieve I shall chastise them with a heavy chastisement in the world and the Hereafter; and they will have no helpers.

9:33 He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.
Find me the passage in the Quran that says Islam wants to dominate the world. Please list the Surah.

And also please show me where in either verse you mentioned is it stated that it is OK to forcefully convert someone to Islam.

Thanks.
 
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StThomasMore

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The weird thing with the Quran, is in one verse it can be a religion of peace, and then a verse right after it is one of war and even terror. The Quran seems to go back and forth a lot between the peace/war issue. One verse says the "people of the Book" are good, and then another says to 'slay them whenever you see them" and to "cast terror in their hearts". Then it says "there is no compulsion in religion".

So its no surprise that there will be the "religion of peace" crowd and the "religion of jihad" crowd. As the Quran sanctions both ways. It seems to have everything for both the peacemaker and the warlord.

The Mecca verses tend to be much softer. Whereas the Medina verses are much more harsher and war oriented. It seems maybe Mohammad's wrote harshly more when he noticed more opposition against him.
 
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