Islam doesn't condone terror

[Montalban]

Thank you for the correction! Yes, that is what I meant; can't believe I typed that out. (I corrected it) Interesting qualification added to that too ...

Interesting as they can still kill you for both

 

[PHenry42]

That was referencing a quote by Servant of Jesus, which our quote function doesn't preserve. If you're unwilling to respond to him I respect your wishes, but I do think his mind is not so cut and dried as you surmise. I think cultural and language differences may come into play here too, to the effect that 'where he's coming from' is different than you conclude.

If I may try, it may not be SoJ actually assumes he knows how you think, but will state how it appears, with the expectation you will correct where he may be wrong. This is actually a fairly common way to converse, in our society.

Likewise, I recognize the concepts and verbiage of Koran are so foreign to me that I don't have the background to even be able to approach it. For example I just learned that Islam also has an unforgivable sin, and that is idolatry. Now I can easily see why the Christian claims of the Divinity of Christ are so problematic for Muslims, but before today I had no concept of this.

These types of things change everything, right? Mutual understanding is a worthwhile goal.

Well, you had absolutely no problem understanding what was meant by my "reasonable and outright scary" post, neither would anyone who's actually read the thread up until that point. His "interpretations" are objectively in logical contradiction with what came before, which is condemning him either way. I've made my assessment of him, based on that and everything that he's posted before, and if he wants to plead innocence, he'll have to do the long walk to Canossa. Or if that's too rough but he still wants to understand, he can shut up and listen when we finally get to our regularly scheduled programming.

Speaking of that, how's the reading going? If you've encountered something specific you find discussion-worthy, I'm ready.

 

[Servant of Jesus]

So as a Christian, I can unequivocally state that I reject any teachings of the Bible and of Jesus that promote murder and terrorism. I can confidently say this because there are no such verses and teachings!

Now I challenge the Muslims posting here to do the same: will you unconditionally agree to reject any verses of the Qur'an that promote murder and terrorism? You keep saying these verses are being misinterpreted- so now is your chance to set the record straight.

Take it one step further: will you here on Christian forums who are Muslims unconditionally agree to reject any and all verses of the Qur'an, or teachings of Muslim clerics, that promote murder, terrorism, punishment of non-Muslims for blasphemy, adultery (including polygamy), lying, hatred towards Jews just because they are Jews, hatred or bias towards anyone that has a different religious belief, etc. etc.

And BTW, I am still waiting for some alternative explanation for all those verses from the Qur'an I posted regarding Islam and its promotion of terrorism. And an explanation of why the vast majority of terrorist attacks since 9/11 have been perpetrated by those who profess to be Muslims.


.

 

[Montalban]

Why is it that Moslems seem angry about being challenged?

 

[SlaveOfGod]

So as a Christian, I can unequivocally state that I reject any teachings of the Bible and of Jesus that promote murder and terrorism. I can confidently say this because there are no such verses and teachings!

Now I challenge the Muslims posting here to do the same: will you unconditionally agree to reject any verses of the Qur'an that promote murder and terrorism? You keep saying these verses are being misinterpreted- so now is your chance to set the record straight.

Take it one step further: will you here on Christian forums who are Muslims unconditionally agree to reject any and all verses of the Qur'an, or teachings of Muslim clerics, that promote murder, terrorism, punishment of non-Muslims for blasphemy, adultery (including polygamy), lying, hatred towards Jews just because they are Jews, hatred or bias towards anyone that has a different religious belief, etc. etc.

And BTW, I am still waiting for some alternative explanation for all those verses from the Qur'an I posted regarding Islam and its promotion of terrorism. And an explanation of why the vast majority of terrorist attacks since 9/11 have been perpetrated by those who profess to be Muslims.


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Some of that isnt even true and that which is none of us will reject

goodbye thanks!

 

[Criada]

Mod Hat On​

This thread has been cleaned up.
A number of off topic posts have been moved to a new thread:
Discussion on Arab/Israeli conflict, split from {Islam doesn't condone terror]

Please keep this on topic now.
Thanks



Mod Hat Off​

 

[Servant of Jesus]

So as a Christian, I can unequivocally state that I reject any teachings of the Bible and of Jesus that promote murder and terrorism. I can confidently say this because there are no such verses and teachings!

Now I challenge the Muslims posting here to do the same: will you unconditionally agree to reject any verses of the Qur'an that promote murder and terrorism? You keep saying these verses are being misinterpreted- so now is your chance to set the record straight.

Take it one step further: will you here on Christian forums who are Muslims unconditionally agree to reject any and all verses of the Qur'an, or teachings of Muslim clerics, that promote murder, terrorism, punishment of non-Muslims for blasphemy, adultery (including polygamy), lying, hatred towards Jews just because they are Jews, hatred or bias towards anyone that has a different religious belief, etc. etc.

And BTW, I am still waiting for some alternative explanation for all those verses from the Qur'an I posted regarding Islam and its promotion of terrorism. And an explanation of why the vast majority of terrorist attacks since 9/11 have been perpetrated by those who profess to be Muslims.

Some of that isnt even true and that which is none of us will reject

goodbye thanks!

The title of this thread is "Islam doesn't condone terror". This was your chance to offer supporting evidence to this statement- and you not only failed to do so- but you actually state clearly:

.....that which is [true] none of us will reject

that speaks legions about the true intent of Islam- to force submission to your faith through terrorism.

My hope is that those of you reading here realize that Christianity demands adherence to God's commandments, which absolutely reject murder and terrorism, and offers hope unto eternity for those who reject their violent past, repent, and embrace the love and foregivness offered by Jesus Christ (God on earth).


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[AskTheFamily]

The title of this thread is "Islam doesn't condone terror". This was your chance to offer supporting evidence to this statement- and you not only failed to do so- but you actually state clearly:
\

The following deals with the verses in questions and put's it all in context: Jihad: The Holy War of Islam and Its Legitimacy in The Quran

You should really read that as it explains the verses and how they are all defensive.

 

[razeontherock]

Speaking of that, how's the reading going? If you've encountered something specific you find discussion-worthy, I'm ready.

Thank you - that will be coming up!

ETA: just saw your last post, "how it was all defensive." If we all take an honest look at ourselves, we can see defensiveness in our midst even now. Here's to hoping we can gain better understanding of one another, and outgrow the need for such defensiveness ...

 

[JJWhite]

Thank you - that will be coming up!

ETA: just saw your last post, "how it was all defensive." If we all take an honest look at ourselves, we can see defensiveness in our midst even now. Here's to hoping we can gain better understanding of one another, and outgrow the need for such defensiveness ...

What does ETA stand for? Edited to add?

Henry didn't post the bit about 'defensive'.

... and I don't think AsktheFamily meant defensive in that way? I did not get a chance to read what he linked though.

 

[Montalban]

You should really read that as it explains the verses and how they are all defensive.

That's a deception. It's in fact one of the biggest deceptions put forward about Islam.

For you anything can be said to be done in defence.

For example, my posting here about Islam could, if I did it in public be seen as an 'attack' on Islam and therefore you escalating this to an act of violence would be seen by you as being one of 'defence'.

We have examples of this from Muhammed's own day when poets who made up funny things about him were murdered in the name of peace, stability, and defence.

Some years ago I saw a Mufti procalim "Islam is entitled to hit back. Sometimes we hit back FIRST".

 

[plenary]

The following deals with the verses in questions and put's it all in context: Jihad: The Holy War of Islam and Its Legitimacy in The Quran

You should really read that as it explains the verses and how they are all defensive.

No they aren't.... But that is not the point.. Muhammad was no prophet....


It is just criminal to claim that islam is the "religion of peace" when so many Muslims and others are being harrased, wronged and killed in name of Islam....

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

And compare that to the insane rantings of Muhammad....

The fruits of islam are oppression and death. As can be seen in all the countries in which islam is the majority religion... It is a full curse for the world and mankind...

Please stop lying to yourselves and other... It just bring so much problems...

Qur'an:8:39 "So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam."
Qur'an:8:7 "Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: 'Wipe the infidels out to the last.'"
Qur'an:8:59 "The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah's enemy."

"terrorize them" hmmmm....

The fruits of islam are sorrow and grief....

Wake up. Because you're either part of the problem or part of the solution.... (Which is not denial of Truth, but acknowledgment of Truth)

 

[AskTheFamily]

Did you guys bother reading the link? It explains the verses and how they are defensive.

 

[AskTheFamily]

That's a deception. It's in fact one of the biggest deceptions put forward about Islam.

For you anything can be said to be done in defence.

It was specifically for those whom start war against you, whom kill you. This is what Quran shows when you investigate all the verses together. If you take a verse out of context, then you can change the meaning, but if you put them all in context, the meaning is clear, only defensive jihaad is permissible.

 

[plenary]

It was specifically for those whom start war against you, whom kill you. This is what Quran shows when you investigate all the verses together. If you take a verse out of context, then you can change the meaning, but if you put them all in context, the meaning is clear, only defensive jihaad is permissible.

To say that people misinterpret the Quran when they say that the doctrine leads to violence is like asking a shoplifter who just stole something, whether he stole something.. What do you think his answer will be??

Again, a tree is judged by it's fruits, NOT by what it PRETENDS to be....

As long as people are willing to lie to each other and are not willing to face the problem of Islam, people are going to DIE... And that is the sobering truth. Ain't no two ways about it. And Islam does not discriminate, Muslims AND non-Muslims are going to DIE. And all because of the teachings of Muhammad.


And it really doesn't matter (for the sake of truth) what the Quran says, because Muhammad was no prophet.... The sayings of the Quran mean absolutely nothing... (in the case of truth finding)

For instance:

Qur'an:8:67 "It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land."

Good grief.

What kind of demented doctrine is this, for goodness sake... The only reason why people want to justify this doctrine is because Islam is all about culture and pride... And that is the big problem....
Because Islam has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with what God has to say, whatsoever...

Christianity still has prophets, maybe you should listen to what the real prophets teach.... It's just a thought though, cause you can always BLINDLY follow Muhammad..... That wouldn't be my choice though and never will be....


Hitler must have thought he was doing the right thing, while killing of the Jews, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to do so....
Its not about what people think, been learned to think or want to think.... Its all about what IS and the Truth.....
Alas, many times, people are not interested in the Truth, but in other things (such as pride and culture).... Which is also the case with Islam and the teachings of Muhammad.

 

[Montalban]

It was specifically for those whom start war against you, whom kill you. This is what Quran shows when you investigate all the verses together. If you take a verse out of context, then you can change the meaning, but if you put them all in context, the meaning is clear, only defensive jihaad is permissible.

As I said, simply 'insulting' Islam is to incite hatret against Islam and therefore it's justified.

That's the real context.

One only has to look at those cartoons in a Danish newspaper. They were not a 'war' against Islam in the sense that people were arming themselves to strike Moslems.

But they were seen as an 'attack' never-the-less and Islam responded.

Furthermore you can call people who don't even live anywhere near you to submit to Islam and if they don't they've rejected al-Lah and equally can be attacked.

 

[Montalban]

Did you guys bother reading the link? It explains the verses and how they are defensive.

That's another neat trick.

Your link went to about 100 pages of text. Somewhere in there one is supposed to answer the question?

 

[Servant of Jesus]

The following deals with the verses in questions and put's it all in context: Jihad: The Holy War of Islam and Its Legitimacy in The Quran

You should really read that as it explains the verses and how they are all defensive.

I read through your opinion piece- and it is just that: an opinion of one person. But right from the start, he acknowledges that Muslims have radically different interpretations of the Qur'an. And that is the trouble- there are millions who believe in a radical interpretation of Islam- people such as Anjen Choudary and Omar Bakri Mohammed, who founded the radical Islamic groups Al Muhajiroun and Islam4UK, and who revere Osama bin Laden, and think 9/11 and the London bombings were justified and great victories for Islam.

It is really impossible to fully address your linked article- it rambles on and on and never tries to address any specifics. And for every verse they quote from the Qur'an that supports, for example, freedom of religion, there are a dozen that say the opposite. And again, therein lies the fundamental problem: a vast number of Muslims support a radical interpretation of Islam; here are some verses:

Qur'an:9:88 "The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah's Cause."

Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

Qur'an:9:112 "The Believers fight in Allah's Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed."

Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."
Ishaq:325 "Muslims, fight in Allah's Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious."

Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."

Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."

 

[Servant of Jesus]

That's another neat trick.

Your link went to about 100 pages of text. Somewhere in there one is supposed to answer the question?

Exactly my point in the last post.

So why is Christian Forums allowing avowed Muslims, whose only intention is to disrupt and befuddle meaningful dialogue and bring disrespect to our Christian faith, to continue to post here?

 

[AskTheFamily]

If you read the link, you would see he talked about conditional verses and general verses. The conditional verses give the conditions in which it stated to fight. If ever it is stated to fight without condition, it is understood it means in context of the conditions put forward in the conditional verses.

The conditional verses say to fight whom fights you but to desist when they incline to peace. The only exception to this came when the polytheists would continue to break treaties and had no intention of keeping up any of the peace treaties. At that point, there was no point it stopping the war against them, as they would only break the peace treaty when it suits them to do so. They had no intention of keeping the treaties.

This is the only exception and it was conditional. Otherwise, the conditional verses teach to only fight those whom fight you and to incline to peace when they incline to peace.