Islam doesn't condone terror

[razeontherock]

How exactly do you know which prophets were that way and which were not?

Ok, we need to know more in-depth about the language used that JJ posted. I would say Muhammad didn't prophesy by the Holy Spirit, because it was an angel who revealed it to him. Can you differentiate btw what you translated as "Holy Spirit" and this angel?

There must be something different about the way you're using the term "Holy Spirit," as this refers to part of the Trinity, which I'm pretty sure Muslims are against.(?)

 

[Montalban]

LOL...

[16:102] Say, "The Holy Spirit (Ar-Ruh Al-Qudus) has brought it down from your Lord, truthfully, to assure those who believe, and to provide a beacon and good news for the submitters."

The good news for the submitters is that they won't be killed

 

[plenary]

What do you mean by "the hells?"

Just like there are three distinct heavens, there are three hells... According to the evils therein... (of which the love of the world and the love of self are the constitutes of these hells... Just like the love of God and the love for the neighbor are the loves of the heavens...)

And these loves are what condemn or save a person... If a person has will in the hellish loves, he is a companion of the hells... Has a person will in the heavenly loves, than he is a companion of the heavens... And this is already the case when he is still in the flesh...

Ok, we need to know more in-depth about the language used that JJ posted. I would say Muhammad didn't prophesy by the Holy Spirit, because it was an angel who revealed it to him. Can you differentiate btw what you translated as "Holy Spirit" and this angel?

There must be something different about the way you're using the term "Holy Spirit," as this refers to part of the Trinity, which I'm pretty sure Muslims are against.(?)

Yeah, that is what's claimed most of the time, that "Gabriel" disclosed the Quran... NOT the Holy Spirit, as was the case with the Bible...


Regardless, Muhammad claimed the Bible is corrupt... And he also claimed to be the last prophet... Well, he isn't the last prophet of Christianity, as there are still prophets, signs and wonders, as well as major revelations... And all of the modern revelations and prophecies validate the Bible...

So it is not a problem, for Muhammad to claim to be the last prophet of Islam, which he indeed is... But it is problematic for him to claim the last prophet of Christianity, which is (according tot reality and doctrine) not possible...

But the real problem with Islam is that it exalts terror and oppression.

Qur'an 8:59 "The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them."

And with regard to that fact, the Muslims are as much the victims as the rest of the world is...

Because Muhammad has copied parts of the Bible, some things are valid, as that God is one.... But what he didn't understand, is the relationship between the Son of God and the Father.. As they are one also.....
The Father, namely, is the Love of God, while the Son is the Word of God or the Wisdom or the Light of God, which proceeds from the Love of God...
The Love of God is a burning Fire, and the Wisdom of God is the Light which proceeds from that Fire...
Jesus Christ is Jehova God, who came in the flesh (The Word made flesh), to condemn sin in the flesh... In that the order of the heavens and the hells was restored and mankind saved....

But, in all fairness, in Christianity there are also false doctrines regarding the trinity... As to that the trinity would compose three persons, which is also extremely wrong... The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are not persons, but different aspects of the One God... The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are therefore One.. And compose (Partially, because there are other aspects as well, but Love, Wisdom and Will are the first three) the One and only God...

 

[b&wpac7]

I would say Muhammad didn't prophesy by the Holy Spirit, because it was an angel who revealed it to him.

Do you question what Daniel wrote because the angel Gabriel delivered the message to him? I hope not!

(not defending Islam here, simply pointing out that our scriptures have angels delivering important messages, as they are messengers after all)

 

[JJWhite]

Yeah, Ray.. we understand the words 'Holy Spirit' mentioned in that verse to be in reference to the Angel Gabriel. I just mentioned since it used the same term.

 

[plenary]

Do you question what Daniel wrote because the angel Gabriel delivered the message to him? I hope not!

(not defending Islam here, simply pointing out that our scriptures have angels delivering important messages, as they are messengers after all)

No, not at all.

But when a prophet prophecieth he does so by the power of the Holy Ghost, not through angels.. So when someone is a prophet, he is so, because he is enlightened in his soul... That is the difference between someone who is a prophet and someone who is not....

The difference being, that that person has the gift of prophecy, which will be a gift of the spirit until the planet earth will cease to exist...

That angels have visited the earth and still do (many times unnoticed) that is a fact, also in case with the famous history of Lot and Sodom and Gomorra...

But a person who is visited by angels is not necessary a prophet... Although Daniel was most certainly a prophet and not a small one at that...


Because Islam in some part validates the Bible, it is by divine providence been allowed to spring forth, but because it differs on some parts, it has consequences in the spiritual world, just as the Jewish and Christian doctrine has its consequences in the spiritual world... (And so have the erroneous doctrines in the different churches their definite consequences, for a person, as he enters the spiritual world.)

And that last fact is the one and only reason, why it is so necessary for a person to adhere to the laws of God.... Because in the spiritual world, there is a law which states: Likeness makes for unity... And as such it is so, that in order to be in union of God, one has to adhere to the laws of God, which God himself will never transgress..
That is also the reason that for example homosexuality is forbidden, because it is against the order of God and as such is it problematic. Just like the acknowledgment of three distinct Gods is also problematic for a person entering the spiritual world, as it is not compatible with the Divine Truth, which is God Himself...

 

[b&wpac7]

But when a prophet prophecieth he does so by the power of the Holy Ghost

.....and that's the sentence where we disagree, since you have a specific meaning in mind that I would not agree to.

 

[plenary]

Prophecy is distinct from revelation and visions... Although many times there is a close connection.

 

[razeontherock]

But, in all fairness, in Christianity there are also false doctrines regarding the trinity... As to that the trinity would compose three persons, which is also extremely wrong... The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are not persons, but different aspects of the One God... The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are therefore One.. And compose (Partially, because there are other aspects as well, but Love, Wisdom and Will are the first three) the One and only God...

Thanks for your reply. This bit here needs to be addressed:

the word "Persons" by itself is meaningless. It only takes on the meaning we attach to it. Here you adequately prove one usage false, but then go on to define a correct usage of the very same word!

So words are poor tools to try to "pin down" the ineffable. It still comes down to a personal relationship with our Living Saviour ...

 

[razeontherock]

Do you question what Daniel wrote because the angel Gabriel delivered the message to him? I hope not!

(not defending Islam here, simply pointing out that our scriptures have angels delivering important messages, as they are messengers after all)

This is an interesting point! Daniel is a troubling book, to be sure. Some on CF claim it is bogus, some say he wasn't a Prophet. I find those things to be borderline blasphemous, but Daniel clearly also operated in the Holy Spirit: you know, that bit with the lions and all, and more ...

 

[razeontherock]

Yeah, Ray.. we understand the words 'Holy Spirit' mentioned in that verse to be in reference to the Angel Gabriel. I just mentioned since it used the same term.

Gotcha, thanks! And in a way it is perfectly acceptable to call Gabriel a Holy Spirit; Angels are Holy, and Spirit. (As there are also unholy spirits)

 

[razeontherock]

Originally Posted by plenary
But when a prophet prophecieth he does so by the power of the Holy Ghost

.....and that's the sentence where we disagree, since you have a specific meaning in mind that I would not agree to.

I really don't think there is the disagreement you allude to. Authors of the Tanakh were moved by the Holy Ghost. The only difference in Christianity is that is not limited to Prophet, Priest and King. (Or more correctly, everyone is transformed into filling those offices)

The specific meaning in mind is the same for both of us, as in G-d (who is One) parted the Red Sea.

 

[b&wpac7]

This is an interesting point! Daniel is a troubling book, to be sure. Some on CF claim it is bogus, some say he wasn't a Prophet. I find those things to be borderline blasphemous, but Daniel clearly also operated in the Holy Spirit: you know, that bit with the lions and all, and more ...

It seems to me that it is in some way saying that he trusted HaShem.

 

[razeontherock]

It seems to me that it is in some way saying that he trusted HaShem.

In some very REAL ways, too!

 

[razeontherock]

Well if anybody sees a way to a lasting solution to the Israeli conflict, by all means have at it. I don't.

In the meantime, I created this thread to discuss something different: namely, if Islam condones terror, or not. I've been given a good bit of homework to do on the subject, and will be posting what I find. Hopefully Muslims will be gracious enough to share their understanding of their Holy texts, and understanding will increase.

 

[razeontherock]

This is a charged issue, and we might just get some people who are actually familiar with the region participating. Henry, can I ask you to stop hijacking my thread and start one on this subject? I'd lurk it with interest.

 

[b&wpac7]

Wow, you know a thread is weird when Montalban and I agree on something..

 

[PHenry42]

This is a charged issue, and we might just get some people who are actually familiar with the region participating. Henry, can I ask you to stop hijacking my thread and start one on this subject? I'd lurk it with interest.

I'm not expecting that discussion to last long anymore, so idk if that's necessary. Perhaps you could request the mods to split off those posts to another thread? I'm sure it should be possible, they do that regularly on a number of forums when things to OT.

 

[b&wpac7]

How does that go together with the equality you just professed agreement with? Current presence is pretty much "Israelis are wherever they want, Palestinians in the few places Israel allows them to".

I won't take up Raze's thread since he has requested we stop.

 

[PHenry42]

Elsewhere then?