Islam doesn't condone terror

plenary said:

Just as well as that there are real and false prophets... But Muslims are indoctrinated into believing that Muhammad was the last prophet... Whereas in the Bible, no such law is known.... Quite on the contrary, in Biblical doctrine, one should strive to receive the gift of prophecy from God... And this is validated by reality...
Both the Bible as reality show that prophets still do exist... Which totally annuls the claim that the Bible has been corrupted... Indeed, the Quran displays non-sense....

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Are you a prophet? Can you identify any other new prophets of Christianity who is still living today?

Yet you agree with the same Jews, whom Jesus called vipers and children of the devil, who accused Jesus of blaspheming. That is so ironic.

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Some of the Jews were vipers, not all of them. Again, it has nothing to do with demographics.The apostles (and many of the followers of Christ) were Jews. Christ was a Jew Himself. But He had also heathen followers and also heathen friends. Indeed, one of his closest friends, was a heathen...
The ones who were called vipers (and corresponding passages, where other words are used) (the words vipers was by John the Baptist, who was a great prophet himself), were the ones who were children of the devil, but pretended to be priests of God.
Because it is one thing to be a child of the devil, it is another thing, to pretend that one is a priest, while one is a devil. These are the ones, who will receive double condemnation. Because they also corrupt the ways of others.

The true meaning of the word Jew, as a people of God, are those who follow in His ways. Those are the real people of God, which has nothing to do, with demographics. Nor with being born into a religion, which means absolutely nothing. (Again, anyone with at least half of a brain can understand this fact.)

Are you a prophet? Can you identify any other new prophets of Christianity who is still living today?

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No, I am no prophet. But I have personally known one and a know of a few living prophets today. I also know a few prophets from the previous centuries, who have written extremely profound texts.
And remember, in Biblical doctrine, a prophet is someone who has the gift of prophecy and that gift can be acquired, when one really strives after it. After the sacrifice of Christ, God has come closer to his creation, not farther away. We, as humans, need prophets, because they constitute the base of the church of God on earth.

An american prophet I accept as a true prophet is for example Bobby Conner who is alive today (but there are many, many more who receive revelations and prophetic Words, all around the world). Prophets I value greatly of the past centuries are Jacob Lorber and Emanuel Swedenborg. Both of which have had extremely extensive Word of God.

I will past a link to one of the most profound prophetic experiences Bobby conner received. (This prophetic experience is like the experiences the apostles John and the apostle Paul had, but there are many, many more.)
And of course in first instance, Muslims shall deny the possibility that prophets still exist, because they are taught that Muhammad was the last one and not only that but that there were no prophets between Christ and Muhammad. Which is totally untrue. As can be seen from the Bible, both Paul and John (of which the revelation of John, at the back of the Bible is famous and profound) had revelations and prophetic experiences.
There is no such thing as the seal of the prophets, indeed, God has come closer to His creation, after the sacrifice of Christ. And the 12 apostles, all received the major Spiritual gifts. Because an apostle has the same rank as a prophet. A apostle is a prophet send on a mission. To claim that there weren't prophets between Christ and Muhammad is problematic. Indeed, anyone who claims this to be the case (with a claim to prophetic authority), is a fraud... (So even when one doesn't believe in modern prophets (there is no basis for the ceasing of prophethood, however), the claims of Muhammad are extremely problematic... Because anyone can see, that for sure the apostle John was a prophet, at least according to Biblical teachings as well as other prophetic texts) And in case someone claims the Bible to be totally corrupted, yeah sure, like God is totally powerless...

http://www.bobbyconner.org/Articles.cfm?id=40

Don't underestimate the power and love of God.

plenary said:

Some of the Jews were vipers, not all of them. Again, it has nothing to do with demographics.The apostles (and many of the followers of Christ) were Jews. Christ was a Jew Himself. But He had also heathen followers and also heathen friends. Indeed, one of his closest friends, was a heathen...
The ones who were called vipers (and corresponding passages, where other words are used) (the words vipers was by John the Baptist, who was a great prophet himself), were the ones who were children of the devil, but pretended to be priests of God.
Because it is one thing to be a child of the devil, it is another thing, to pretend that one is a priest, while one is a devil. These are the ones, who will receive double condemnation. Because they also corrupt the ways of others.

The true meaning of the word Jew, as a people of God, are those who follow in His ways. Those are the real people of God, which has nothing to do, with demographics. Nor with being born into a religion, which means absolutely nothing. (Again, anyone with at least half of a brain can understand this fact.)
No, I am no prophet. But I have personally known one and a know of a few living prophets today. I also know a few prophets from the previous centuries, who have written extremely profound texts.
And remember, in Biblical doctrine, a prophet is someone who has the gift of prophecy and that gift can be acquired, when one really strives after it. After the sacrifice of Christ, God has come closer to his creation, not farther away. We, as humans, need prophets, because they constitute the base of the church of God on earth.

An american prophet I accept as a true prophet is for example Bobby Conner who is alive today (but there are many, many more who receive revelations and prophetic Words, all around the world). Prophets I value greatly of the past centuries are Jacob Lorber and Emanuel Swedenborg. Both of which have had extremely extensive Word of God.

I will past a link to one of the most profound prophetic experiences Bobby conner received. (This prophetic experience is like the experiences the apostles John and the apostle Paul had, but there are many, many more.)
And of course in first instance, Muslims shall deny the possibility that prophets still exist, because they are taught that Muhammad was the last one and not only that but that there were no prophets between Christ and Muhammad. Which is totally untrue. As can be seen from the Bible, both Paul and John (of which the revelation of John, at the back of the Bible is famous and profound) had revelations and prophetic experiences.
There is no such thing as the seal of the prophets, indeed, God has come closer to His creation, after the sacrifice of Christ. And the 12 apostles, all received the major Spiritual gifts. Because a apostle has the same rank as a prophet. A apostle is a prophet send on a mission. To claim that there weren't prophets between Christ and Muhammad is problematic. Indeed, anyone who claims this to be the case, is a fraud...

BobbyConner.org

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There is no need to yell out wild accusations Plenary, cool down.
The Neshama/Godly soul/Jewish soul, which is not the same as the animal/natural soul, which we are all born with, and which without we would be lifeless, comes from from Gods thoughts from before creation.
Creation came about through Gods speech, He spoke and it was, there is a time to speak and there is a time not to speak, so also with the Holy One, blessed be He, but thoughts are ongoing, the Nashama is a part of God above, He chooses.
I here put in a qoute from an article by Rabbi Manis Friedman, entitled
"What is the cause of antisemitism?-Jewish Identity."
"When the Torah was given, the Jew,s physical condition, the body of the Jew, was chosen. Although the Jewish body had been the same as other peoples bodies, it was chosen at Mt. Sinai. From then on, the soul was not going to be a stranger in a strange land, in the body, but the body was going to become Jewish as well."
so the Nashama is God,s thoughts from before creation, inplanted in a body ongoing for all generations, The Nashama being a part of God, and him imparting of it into a body, Would that not be similar to saying, The word became flesh? What I mean by this is, instead of idolizing one person, see the big picture instead. And there are many Jews who do not have clue they they are Jewish, for various reasons, but if they are, then they carry within a Nashama, which can be awakened at any moment, there is an ongoing ingathering of exiles, this gives birth to a respect towards all peoples, cause you never know who you meet.
I must admit, that I am a little impatient in getting out into the wonderful spring outside, so I may have "boomed" here somewhere, no doubt I will be informed when I get back, till then.

plenary said:

The true meaning of the word Jew, as a people of God, are those who follow in His ways.

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The word Jew evolved because only those of the southern kingdom, Judah, were left standing and so all who were there were residents of Judah. It eventually made it into English as Jew. The word has absolutely nothing to do with God and, as far as I know, does not appear in the Jewish Bible. The Jewish people are referred to as Israel or Jacob most often. Israel's meaning does have to do with God as it is usually translated as struggles or wrestles with God. This name came to be when Jacob wrestled the angel and was renamed after.

If you got this kind of information from someone else regarding the meaning of the words Israel and Jew, you need to stop listening to them because they don't have a clue what they are talking about. Also, your comment that it has nothing to do with demographics is outright rejected by the Tanakh. Abraham's descendants are the ones mentioned. The word used is not the one used for a spiritual descendant, but the word used for physical ones and is the same word used for sperm.

If you want to suggest that Jesus' work opened the door for gentiles, that fine. But if you want to rewrite the Jewish scriptures to prove your point, you fail. The Torah was given to the Jewish people at Sinai for them and their descendants to follow. It was not given to everybody to follow.

Jews in Gods eyes, were the ones who followed after his laws... The ones who didn't perished...
So it's not a purely demographic issue.... Indeed, for God only the heart counts, not the countenance...

In Christian doctrine one is not only to be called a Jew when one is a Jew on the outside, but rather on the inside..
And with "Israel" in the new testament doctrine, are not only the Jews of old, but also the gentiles who follow after the laws of Christ....

And I know, that my words weren't always carefully chosen, I could have done better, but I think one can get the point...

There is no need to yell out wild accusations Plenary, cool down.
The Neshama/Godly soul/Jewish soul, which is not the same as the animal/natural soul, which we are all born with, and which without we would be lifeless, comes from from Gods thoughts from before creation.
Creation came about through Gods speech, He spoke and it was, there is a time to speak and there is a time not to speak, so also with the Holy One, blessed be He, but thoughts are ongoing, the Nashama is a part of God above, He chooses.
I here put in a qoute from an article by Rabbi Manis Friedman, entitled
"What is the cause of antisemitism?-Jewish Identity."
"When the Torah was given, the Jew,s physical condition, the body of the Jew, was chosen. Although the Jewish body had been the same as other peoples bodies, it was chosen at Mt. Sinai. From then on, the soul was not going to be a stranger in a strange land, in the body, but the body was going to become Jewish as well."
so the Nashama is God,s thoughts from before creation, inplanted in a body ongoing for all generations, The Nashama being a part of God, and him imparting of it into a body, Would that not be similar to saying, The word became flesh? What I mean by this is, instead of idolizing one person, see the big picture instead. And there are many Jews who do not have clue they they are Jewish, for various reasons, but if they are, then they carry within a Nashama, which can be awakened at any moment, there is an ongoing ingathering of exiles, this gives birth to a respect towards all peoples, cause you never know who you meet.
I must admit, that I am a little impatient in getting out into the wonderful spring outside, so I may have "boomed" here somewhere, no doubt I will be informed when I get back, till then.

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I am not pointing my finger to the Jews... The Jews were the best equipped for their task at hand.. No other people could have done better... There are no peoples with no blemishes...

And regarding Muhammad, yes he was a fraud. That is also not pointing with a finger, he is the one who made the ridiculous claims... Him being the last prophet and that there were no prophets between him and Christ... That's just ridiculous... Look at the revelation of John...

plenary said:

And regarding Muhammad, yes he was a fraud. That is also not pointing with a finger, he is the one who made the ridiculous claims... Him being the last prophet and that there were no prophets between him and Christ... That's just ridiculous... Look at the revelation of John...

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You seem to be under the idea that everybody recognizes those you recognize as prophets.

I don't recognize Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Jesus, John the Baptist, James, etc. as prophets. Therefore if you tell me to look at the revelation of John it means nothing to me.

plenary said:

I am not pointing my finger to the Jews... The Jews were the best equipped for their task at hand.. No other people could have done better... There are no peoples with no blemishes...

And regarding Muhammad, yes he was a fraud. That is also not pointing with a finger, he is the one who made the ridiculous claims... Him being the last prophet and that there were no prophets between him and Christ... That's just ridiculous... Look at the revelation of John...

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Plenary, if you only knew how much time I spend trying to get it right what I write, I did not mean you were pointing the finger, but anyway, thing is, if we have as a starting point that it is not about throwing pies at eachother, just saying, because I,m aware that I don,t express myself as cleary as I wish to, but it is challenge.

plenary said:

I am not pointing my finger to the Jews... The Jews were the best equipped for their task at hand.. No other people could have done better... There are no peoples with no blemishes...

And regarding Muhammad, yes he was a fraud. That is also not pointing with a finger, he is the one who made the ridiculous claims... Him being the last prophet and that there were no prophets between him and Christ... That's just ridiculous... Look at the revelation of John...

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John? In your corrupted bible? Naw..that's not good enough.
You need to know where the bible you read now comes from.
Well, what has been the official Church position regarding these "discrepancies"? How did the Church decide to handle this situation? Did they call upon all of the foremost scholars of Christian literature to come together in a mass conference in order to jointly study the most ancient Christian manuscripts available to the Church and come to a common agreement as to what was the true original word of God? No!
Well then, did they immediately expend every effort to make mass copies of the original manuscripts and send them out to the Christian world so that they could make their own decisions as to what truly was the original unchanged word of God? Once again, No!
So what did they do? Let us ask Rev. Dr. George L. Robertson. In his book "Where did we get our Bible? he writes:
"Of the MSS. of Holy Scripture in Greek still existing there are said to be several thousand of varying worth ... Three or four in particular of these old, faded out, and unattractive documents constitute the most ancient and the most precious treasures of the Christian Church, and are therefore of special interest."
First in Rev. Richardson's list is the "Codex Vaticanus" of which he says:
"This is probably the most ancient of all Greek MSS. now known to exist. It is designated as Codex 'B.' In 1448, Pope Nicholas V brought it to Rome where it has lain practically ever since, being guarded assiduously by papal officials in the Vatican Library. its history is brief: Erasmus in 1533 knew of its existence, but neither he nor any of his successors were permitted to study it... becoming quite inaccessible to scholars, till Tischendorf in 1843, after months of delay, was finally allowed to see it for six hours. Another specialist, named de Muralt in 1844 was likewise given an aggravating glimpse of it for nine hours. The story of how Dr. Tregelles in 1845 was allowed by the authorities (all unconscious to themselves) to secure it page by page through memorizing the text, is a fascinating one. Dr. Tregelles did it. He was permitted to study the MS. continuously for a long time, but not to touch it or to take notes. Indeed, every day as he entered the room where the precious document was guarded, his pockets were searched and pen, paper and ink were taken from him, if he carried such accessories with him. The permission to enter, however, was repeated, until he finally had carried away with him and annotated in his room most of the principle variant readings of this most ancient text. Often, however, in the process, if the papal authorities observed he was becoming too much absorbed in any one section, they would snatch the MS. away from him and direct his attention to another leaf. Eventually they discovered that Tregelles had practically stolen the text, and that the Biblical world knew the secrets of their historic MS. Accordingly, Pope Pius IX ordered that it should be photographed and published; and it was, in five volumes which appeared in 1857. But the work was very unsatisfactorily done. About that time Tischendorf made a third attempt to gain access to and examine it. He succeeded, and later issued the text of the first twenty pages. Finally in 1889-90, with papal permission, the entire text was photographed and issued in facsimile, and published so that a copy of the expensive quartos was obtainable by, and is now in the possession of all the principle libraries in the biblical world."
"Where did we get our Bible?", Rev. Dr. George L. Robertson. Harper and Brothers Publishers, pp.110-112
What were all of the Popes afraid of? What was the Vatican as a whole afraid of? Why was the concept of releasing the text of their most ancient copy of the Bible to the general public so terrifying to them? Why did they feel it necessary to bury the most ancient copies of the inspired word of God in a dark corner of the Vatican never to be seen by outside eyes? Why? What about all of the thousands upon thousands of other manuscripts which to this day remain buried in the darkest depths of the Vatican vaults never to be seen or studied by the general masses of Christendom?

Robban said:

Plenary, if you only knew how much time I spend trying to get it right what I write, I did not mean you were pointing the finger, but anyway, thing is, if we have as a starting point that it is not about throwing pies at eachother, just saying, because I,m aware that I don,t express myself as cleary as I wish to, but it is challenge.

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When some people start to run out of arguments, they use that kind of comments to defend themselves.

I still say that the corrupted Bible theory is a cop out.

I won't claim the Quran is corrupted, as I don't care if it was or not. I disagree with what it has to say (when it contradicts the Torah.. if it agrees then I agree with it but only because it agrees with the Torah).

Robban said:

There is no need to yell out wild accusations Plenary, cool down.
The Neshama/Godly soul/Jewish soul, which is not the same as the animal/natural soul, which we are all born with, and which without we would be lifeless, comes from from Gods thoughts from before creation.
Creation came about through Gods speech, He spoke and it was, there is a time to speak and there is a time not to speak, so also with the Holy One, blessed be He, but thoughts are ongoing, the Nashama is a part of God above, He chooses.
I here put in a qoute from an article by Rabbi Manis Friedman, entitled
"What is the cause of antisemitism?-Jewish Identity."
"When the Torah was given, the Jew,s physical condition, the body of the Jew, was chosen. Although the Jewish body had been the same as other peoples bodies, it was chosen at Mt. Sinai. From then on, the soul was not going to be a stranger in a strange land, in the body, but the body was going to become Jewish as well."
so the Nashama is God,s thoughts from before creation, inplanted in a body ongoing for all generations, The Nashama being a part of God, and him imparting of it into a body, Would that not be similar to saying, The word became flesh? What I mean by this is, instead of idolizing one person, see the big picture instead. And there are many Jews who do not have clue they they are Jewish, for various reasons, but if they are, then they carry within a Nashama, which can be awakened at any moment, there is an ongoing ingathering of exiles, this gives birth to a respect towards all peoples, cause you never know who you meet.

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This sounds similar to the Holy Spirit understanding in Christianity... but a little different. As a Muslim, I would reject such an idea.

b&wpac7 said:

I disagree with what it has to say (when it contradicts the Torah.. if it agrees then I agree with it but only because it agrees with the Torah).

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That's basically what our scholars have taught should be our position regarding previous Scriptures, but in the reverse... if it agrees with Qur'aan, accept.. if it contradicts Qur'an, reject... if it neither agrees nor contradicts, then no problem to relay as a maybe. They usually mention this when commenting on the following hadith:

بلغوا عني و لو آية ، و حدثوا عن بني إسرائيل و لا حرج ، و من كذب علي متعمدا فليتبوأ مقعده من النار

"Convey (what you learned) from me even if it be one sign/verse, and narrate from the Children of Israel and find no harm/blame in that, and whoever lies about me purposely, he should await his seat in the Hellfire."

JJWhite said:

That's basically what our scholars have taught should be our position regarding previous Scriptures, but in the reverse

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That makes a lot of sense from your position just like our default regarding the Torah makes sense to us. I would be surprised if it were any other way.

b&wpac7 said:

That makes a lot of sense from your position just like our default regarding the Torah makes sense to us. I would be surprised if it were any other way.

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Also Oral Torah probably included in what Muhammad (pbuh) was referring to when saying there's no problem to narrate from the Children of Israel, since he mentioned it with general wording and in the context of narrating things from him in general... Qur'an or otherwise.

plenary said:

Some of the Jews were vipers, not all of them. Again, it has nothing to do with demographics.The apostles (and many of the followers of Christ) were Jews. Christ was a Jew Himself. But He had also heathen followers and also heathen friends. Indeed, one of his closest friends, was a heathen...
The ones who were called vipers (and corresponding passages, where other words are used) (the words vipers was by John the Baptist, who was a great prophet himself), were the ones who were children of the devil, but pretended to be priests of God.
Because it is one thing to be a child of the devil, it is another thing, to pretend that one is a priest, while one is a devil. These are the ones, who will receive double condemnation. Because they also corrupt the ways of others.

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You dont get it. You believe in Christ. Christ said some of the Jews were liars and vipers and sons of the devil. Christ asked you not to believe them. Yet, when they accused Jesus of blasphemy, you did not take the side of Christ. You wholeheartedly believe the accusation of these Jews.

Do you get it now?

You dont get it. You believe in Christ. Christ said some of the Jews were liars and vipers and sons of the devil. Christ asked you not to believe them. Yet, when they accused Jesus of blasphemy, you did not take the side of Christ. You wholeheartedly believe the accusation of these Jews.

Do you get it now?

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No...

I have not claimed that Jesus Christ blasphemed, nor have I supported such claims.
I absolutely have no idea, whatsoever, what you are talking about.

And regarding the Jews, if the Jews would know their prophets, they would have known that the Messiah is no-one else, but God Himself.... Heck, the the temple priests even wanted to kill John the Baptist, who was a great prophet himself.... They planned his death... Do you think that God was pleased with these actions? They were afraid of the people (otherwise they would have killed John the Baptist themselves), and therefore they were cunning into planning the death of John the Baptist... And John the Baptist knew the identity of Christ....

John 1:
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

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Jesus Christ is the Word of God made flesh, as is supported by the old testament:

Isaiah, one of the greatest prophets of the Jewish era:

Isaiah 9:
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

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plenary said:

Isaiah, one of the greatest prophets of the Jewish era:

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IF the full prophecy you quoted there happens AND it is Jesus that accomplishes it, I'll believe. HOWEVER there is no universal peace and nobody sits on David's throne.

IF the full prophecy you quoted there happens AND it is Jesus that accomplishes it, I'll believe. HOWEVER there is no universal peace and nobody sits on David's throne.

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The Kingdom of God is not of this world, but in the Heavens... That is why Christ taught the following:

John 18:
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

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The prophetic texts are of natural language which describe spiritual things... By Throne of David, the Spiritual throne is meant... And with the Kingdom thereof, is meant the Kingdom of the Heavens, which is the Kingdom of God.

The Jews expect a worldy Messiah, who will never come... The Messiah had a spiritual tast, because the main accomplishments of the sacrifice are Spiritual, not worldly although it also has certain consequences on earth...

If the Jews wait for another Messiah other than Jesus Christ, it will be a long wait, much longer than a couple of thousand years, because it will not happen.
That is why Christianity has the gift of prophecy and the Jewish church has not...

John 14:
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

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The problem with the current Jewish Church, is that they interpret externally not internally.... The natural sense, instead of the spiritual sense of the Word of God.

b&wpac7 said:

There are no absolute rights. All rights are subject to the situation in which they occur. I have a right to free speech but I cannot use it to endanger people. I have a right of religion and free exercise thereof unless I am using it to break an existing law or other such offenses. I have a right to my property, but it can be taken away using eminent domain.

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No, rights are not subject to situation. Those examples you mentioned are specific, enumerated exceptions, and subject to the rule of law. They are not an implication of basic civil and human rights being subjectively situation-dependent, or that they can be legally revoked or ignored by a subjective evaluation that the situation warrants it.

But at least you've stopped denying that Israel has committed ethnic cleansing. That I'm grateful of, at least. It shows a rare amount of moral integrity to do so. Few Jews accept that inevitable conclusion even when all the facts are laid out before them and all the obfuscation swept aside.

b&wpac7 said:

Would a financial solution work for you in this? Instead of granting land where people currently live, what about restitution of the worth of the land that was lost?

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That's something you have to ask those actually affected. It's up to them, and if they choose to do so, it must be done while having the option to instead exercise their rights to the fullest. If they sell a basic human right only because they don't think they'll be able to ever exercise that right, the sale is utterly void. Property can be legally expropriated by a state under certain specific circumstances (eminent domain), basic human rights can not.

Compensation for lost property is a given, an entitlement the refugees are owed to begin with. Compensation for not excercising their inalienable human right to return must be on top of that.