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Islam doesn't condone terror

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Montalban

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:). But who could turn down the wine of gnosis , love, and communion ?

Your spirit is mingled with mine
as wine is mixed with water;
whatever touches you touches me.
In all the stations of the soul you are I.
~Mansur al-Hallaj

O saki, fill a cup
with that wine:
my heart, my religion
my sweet life.
Can drinking be my liturgy?
Then my Faith
will be to sip the Beloved
from this chalice.
~ Fakhruddin Iraqi

Which misses the point.

In your version of heaven, or 'paradise' even when you're 'with' God, you still have needs and wants that have to be fulfilled, such as sexual urges, thirst, etc.

For me, being in the prescnece of perfection I'll not want for anything.

For you, you still have needs, even for wine that doesn't even have alcahol in it.
 
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Ishraqiyun

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I think you may have a differnt understanding regarding the nature of the wine. "Wine" is divine gnosis, vision, and communion with God. It is called "wine" because it often brings about a certain divine intoxication. St John of the Cross and other Christian mystics have also made use of the same metaphor of divine intoxication and wine. It's a very common symbol or metaphor in mystic discourse. I don't believe it is referncing the earthly drink. It is the Beloved (Allah) we sip from the chalice.
 
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FRM48

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I think you may have a differnt understanding regarding the nature of the wine. "Wine" is divine gnosis, vision, and communion with God. It is called "wine" because it often brings about a certain divine intoxication. St John of the Cross and other Christian mystics have also made use of the same metaphor of divine intoxication and wine. It's a very common symbol or metaphor in mystic discourse. I don't believe it is referncing the earthly drink. It is the Beloved (Allah) we sip from the chalice.

Why would I need to get drunk on wine to experience God?Don't you know Jesus is better than drugs and alcohol.
 
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Montalban

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I think you may have a differnt understanding regarding the nature of the wine. "Wine" is divine gnosis, vision, and communion with God. It is called "wine" because it often brings about a certain divine intoxication. St John of the Cross and other Christian mystics have also made use of the same metaphor of divine intoxication and wine. It's a very common symbol or metaphor in mystic discourse. I don't believe it is referncing the earthly drink. It is the Beloved (Allah) we sip from the chalice.

You're still missing the point.

The point isn't that the wine doesn't intoxicate.

The point is that you desire it.

I noted before that my idea of heaven is that I have no desires because I'm with what's perfect already.

Your god is so imperfect that even in heaven you can go "Gee I need a drink right now".

Which means you desire something you're not getting.

You have needs that still need to be met.

You have a desire to have sex, and you then go and have those needs met with your wide-eyed houris.

(Your poor wife just gets to be with you)
 
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Ishraqiyun

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I noted before that my idea of heaven is that I have no desires because I'm with what's perfect already
That's what the wine is. Being with the Perfect, The Real. That brings about the divine "intoxication" and rapture. Wine is like "seeing God face to face" in the Christian tradition. That's exactly what the symbol/metaphor points to.
 
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Montalban

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That's what the wine is. Being with the Perfect, The Real. That brings about the divine "intoxication" and rapture. Wine is like "seeing God face to face" in the Christian tradition. That's exactly what the symbol/metaphor points to.

That's not true. Take the example of having sex in your heaven. You're given wide-eyed houris and Muhammed said you've have the sexual prowess to use them all

Are you saying that the wine is symbolic and the sex isn't?

What basis do you have for showing it's mere symbolic?

Further if it were purely symbolic why not have real wine here on earth?
 
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Ishraqiyun

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What basis do you have for showing it's mere symbolic?
I doubt I will successfully get you to embrace my understanding of Islam as the "correct" understanding. All I can do is say what it is I as a Muslim actually believe.

I can say that the understanding of the wine in Paradise as union with Beloved has been taught by the great spiritual teachers and mystics of Islam throughout the history of the faith though. People like Rumi, Jami, Hafiz, Ibn Arabi, Suhrawardi, etc. It is certainly not something I just invented myself. I could probably do some digging and find examples I guess. Can't do it now though.

Isn't there "wine" in the kingdom of heaven in the Christian faith as well:

"I tell you solemnly, I shall not drink anymore wine until the day I drink the new wine in the kingdom of God."
- Gospel of Mark 14:25
 
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axles of fate

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I know a few people of Islamic religion who cant stand violence. They see terrorism as terrorism and nothing more they do not praise them and stuff like that which I've been hearing online a bunch. Islam at times does scare me a little because of the terrorism I see in the religion, but even christianity has radicals which condone terrorism by using the bible as an excuse to commit these terrors.
 
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Montalban

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I doubt I will successfully get you to embrace my understanding of Islam as the "correct" understanding. All I can do is say what it is I as a Muslim actually believe.
Sure, but you can always explain why you believe it
I can say that the understanding of the wine in Paradise as union with Beloved has been taught by the great spiritual teachers and mystics of Islam throughout the history of the faith though. People like Rumi, Jami, Hafiz, Ibn Arabi, Suhrawardi, etc. It is certainly not something I just invented myself. I could probably do some digging and find examples I guess. Can't do it now though.
Fair enough.

This Islamic site directly compares it to earthyly food...
Paradise is free from all the impurities of this world. Eating and drinking in this life results in the need for excretion and its associated unpleasant odors. If a person drinks wine in this world, he loses his mind. Women in this world menstruate and give birth, which are sources of pain and hurt. Paradise is free from all of these discomforts: its people will not urinate, defecate, spit or suffer from catarrh. The wine of Paradise, as described by its Creator, is:

“Crystal-white, delicious to those who drink (thereof), free from intoxication, nor will they suffer intoxication therefrom” (Quran 37:46-47)

The Pleasures of Paradise (part 2 of 2) - The Religion of Islam
Isn't there "wine" in the kingdom of heaven in the Christian faith as well:
I don't know. However (and I can see where this is going), just because we would believe in symbolic wine doesn't mean that Islam does either - for instance, as I noted Muhammed goes into specifics about how you're given extra power with regards sex with so many houris.

"The greatest joy of all in Paradise will be seeing God, may He be glorified and exalted"
A serious dialogue about paradise and wine

Yet a desire for wine can take you away from this

They not a physical aspect to the wine...
The pleasures of Paradise are not merely physical in nature
"Ibid.

For Christianity; I am not aware of any teachings that wine in heaven is real wine
 
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Rebax

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Based on the Koran...

5:51
O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliya' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliya' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliya', then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust).


Islamic opinion...
It is not permissible for a Muslim man or woman to take a male or female friend who is not a Muslim, because Allaah has forbidden us to love the kuffaar or take them as close friends and companions
Islam Question and Answer - Should she end her relationship with some kaafir women or use the opportunity for da’wah?

"Jane Gerber claims that the Qur'an ascribes negative traits to Jews, such as cowardice, greed, and chicanery. She also alleges that the Qur'an associates Jews with interconfessional strife and rivalry (Qur'an 2:113), the Jewish belief that they alone are beloved of God (Qur'an 5:18), and that only they will achieve salvation (Qur'an 2:111).[91] According to the Encyclopedia Judaica, the Qur'an contains many attacks on Jews and Christians for their refusal to recognize Muhammad as a prophet.[92] In the Muslim view, the crucifixion of Jesus was an illusion, and thus the Jewish plots against him ended in failure.[93] In numerous verses (3:63; 3:71; 4:46; 4:160–161; 5:41–44, 5:63–64, 5:82; 6:92)[94] the Qur'an accuses Jews of altering the Scripture.[95]

Qur'anic statements which portray Christians and Jews in a negative image (9:30, 5:72, 3:85, 4:150, 58:22) include verse 30 of Al-Tawba which states:

"And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of God; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of God; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may God destroy them; how they are turned away!"
Criticism of the Qur'an - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Before we understand the verse under discussion it is important to understand the context of this Surah and the situation under which this verse was revealed.

In the last stages of prophetic mission in Medinah, Muslims had emerged as a dominant power and had set up a society of their own. At the same time, the polytheists of Makkah as well as Jews and Christians had also established setups and in case of an armed conflict, it seemed that any of them could have emerged as victorious. In such an environment the hypocrites amongst Muslims maintained ties with Jews and Christians and supported them in secret. Their support was in order to safeguard their interests with whoever the victorious party would be. In addition, the hypocrites obviously had not accepted Islam from within their hearts and their conversion to Islam had not affected their ties with Muslims' opponents.

It is in this context that Quran revealed the following verses specifically admonishing these hypocrites amongst Muslims:
"O believers, do not take the Jews and the Christians as your friends and protectors, they are friends of each other. And whoever makes them a friend then he is from amongst them. Verily God does not guide the unjust people. And you will see that those (Muslims) in whose hearts is a disease run towards them saying 'We fear that a calamity may befall us.' So God will soon bring victory or a decision from Him, causing them regret on account of the thoughts they harbored in their hearts." (Quran 5:51-52)

The explanation above should depict the correct meaning of the verses under discussion.

In addition to the general context, it should also be noted that Quran has used the words 'the Jews' and 'the Christians' making it very clear that it is a specific group of Jews and Christians and this verse is not a general prescription. The attitude of these people has been explained further in the following verses for instance:
"O you who believe! do not take for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery and a joke, from among those who were given the Book before you and the unbelievers; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah if you are believers. And when you call to prayer they make it a mockery and a joke; this is because they are a people who do not understand." (Quran 5:57-58)

As it can be clearly seen, the Jews and Christians mentioned above are those 'who take your religion for a mockery and a joke.'


There's bad Jews/Christians as it's bad/good muslims, you seem to have a diffuculity to understand that.


Peace.
 
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plenary

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There's bad Jews/Christians as it's bad/good muslims, you seem to have a diffuculity to understand that.


Peace.
Just as well as that there are real and false prophets... But Muslims are indoctrinated into believing that Muhammad was the last prophet... Whereas in the Bible, no such law is known.... Quite on the contrary, in Biblical doctrine, one should strive to receive the gift of prophecy from God... And this is validated by reality...
Both the Bible as reality show that prophets still do exist... Which totally annuls the claim that the Bible has been corrupted... Indeed, the Quran displays non-sense....
 
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Rebax

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Just as well as that there are real and false prophets... But Muslims are indoctrinated into believing that Muhammad was the last prophet... Whereas in the Bible, no such law is known.... Quite on the contrary, in Biblical doctrine, one should strive to receive the gift of prophecy from God... And this is validated by reality...
Both the Bible as reality show that prophets still do exist... Which totally annuls the claim that the Bible has been corrupted... Indeed, the Quran displays non-sense....

You might need to study islam little more to understand it, in your previous post when you got little more understanding and saw how wrong you were, you avoided to reply back, why?

Also, you should remember Jesus was send to the jews and his message was not to the whole mandkind. Muhammed's message was to the whole mankind, this subject has been debated lots of times by christian-muslims. Maybe if you looked at some debates you could consider it and understand. I suggest you should read books about the early christianity, it's nothing like what it is today.

Jesus calling the Jews, the masters, and the Philistines their dogs. Also, Jesus refusing to heal a sick child until he [Jesus] was pressured by the mother's begging. Does Jesus like to be begged? "A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, 'Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession. Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, 'Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.' He [Jesus] answered, 'I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.' The woman came and knelt before him. 'Lord, help me!' she said. He [Jesus] replied 'It is not right to take the children's [Jews] bread [blessings and miracles reserved for them] and toss it to their dogs [the Canaanite, or the Philistines].' 'Yes, Lord' she said, 'but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table.' Then Jesus answered, 'Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.' And her daughter was healed from that very hour. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 15:22-28)"

This seems to be quite clear a contradiction from the Bible, because Jesus did call the Jews hypocrites and he never liked them, and they were the ones who crucified him:
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 23:37)"

Jesus (peace be upon him) is definitely greater than the disciples and his words are what matter most. If there is a contradiction, the disciples should be rejected on that matter!

"And Jesus said to them, 'A prophet is not without honour, except in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.'" (also in Matthew 13:57, Luke 4:24 and John 4:43).

This is a wonderful prophecy as well. It not only says that he is for Israel alone but also says that others do not respect non fellow race Prophets. This has turned out to be true. We see that the so-called followers of Jesus (peace be upon him) do not respect him and they have done this by associating man-made concepts like Trinity to him.

Acts 11:19

"Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only."


Acts 11:1-3

"And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him. Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them ."

Makes it clear, huh?
 
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plenary

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Also, you should remember Jesus was send to the jews and his message was not to the whole mandkind. Muhammed's message was to the whole mankind, this subject has been debated lots of times by christian-muslims. Maybe if you looked at some debates you could consider it and understand. I suggest you should read books about the early christianity, it's nothing like what it is today.
Muhammad has claimed to be the last prophet, which means that he is a false prophet, because that is just a stupid claim...... And the sacrifice of Christ, was for the whole of mankind....

Israel, means the people of promise, which is not out of birthright but out of promise.... So when Jesus told he was send to the lost sheep of Israel, that means to the people of promise... And the people of promise, are those who do the will of God.... (which isn't a purely demographic aspect.)

That is, the ones who want to adhere to the will of God, for those peoples, Jesus Christ has come to this earth, to condemn the sin in the flesh..
And the Jews who were compared to vipers in some passages, were the ones who were only Jews on the outside, not on the inside... Because on the inside, many were children of the devil....
 
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Rebax

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Muhammad has claimed to be the last prophet, which means that he is a false prophet, because that is just a stupid claim...... And the sacrifice of Christ, was for the whole of mankind....

Israel, means the people of promise, which is not out of birthright but out of promise.... So when Jesus told he was send to the lost sheep of Israel, that means to the people of promise... And the people of promise, are those who do the will of God.... (which isn't a purely demographic aspect.)

That is, the ones who want to adhere to the will of God, for those peoples, Jesus Christ has come to this earth, to condemn the sin in the flesh..
And the Jews who were compared to vipers in some passages, were the ones who were only Jews on the outside, not on the inside... Because on the inside, many were children of the devil....

Got any evidence to back up your claims? Also, you didn't answer the rest of my comment.
 
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plenary

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Got any evidence to back up your claims? Also, you didn't answer the rest of my comment.
The rest of your comment? The rest of your copy-past action you mean.

If one is interested in the Truth, one is also willing to exert his or herself...


Every word on my part is lost effort.
Being born into a religion on itself means nothing at all. And every one with at least half of a brain can understand that fact.

Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
 
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Rebax

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The rest of your comment? The rest of your copy-past action you mean.

If one is interested in the Truth, one is also willing to exert his or herself...


Every word on my part is lost effort.
Being born into a religion on itself means nothing at all. And every one with at least half of a brain can understand that fact.

I've read the bible myself, and I would be the last person you can call ''born into a religion''. You don't know anything about me. My jewish brother disproved you about the comment you said...yet you're answerless to put up evidences that says against the quotes.
 
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Islam_mulia

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That is, the ones who want to adhere to the will of God, for those peoples, Jesus Christ has come to this earth, to condemn the sin in the flesh..
And the Jews who were compared to vipers in some passages, were the ones who were only Jews on the outside, not on the inside... Because on the inside, many were children of the devil....
Yet you agree with the same Jews, whom Jesus called vipers and children of the devil, who accused Jesus of blaspheming. That is so ironic.
 
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