Isaiah and the BoM

[Tawhano]

I saw a thread which interested me so I copied it down and came back with my answer and it was gone. For whatever reason it disappeared off the thread I decided to go ahead and post my reply in separate threads this is one:

Several scriptures were quoted and an interpretation was sought:

Isaiah 29:10-1410 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. Isaiah 29:10-1411 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
Isaiah 29:10-1412 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
Isaiah 29:18-1918 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

This one always gets me head scratching when I discuss it with the missionaries. It’s a clear case of “if it doesn’t fit its symbolic, if it fits its literal” mentality. They tell me that the book is a literal book but the potter’s clay is seen as symbolic even though both references begin with something’ is like’, which in Bible jargon means it is symbolic. The book is not a literal book. Notice what is being liken to a book which can’t be read;

Isaiah 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:

It is the vision that is sealed up and liken to a book which can’t be read. Whose vision?

Isaiah 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

It is the vision God gave to the prophets and rulers that was sealed up LIKE a book that can’t be read, in other words they can see the writing but can’t understand the meaning. They see vision but can’t discern the meanings of them. Nowhere in verse 12 does it say the unlearned man could read it, in fact it says quite clearly he couldn’t. The vision had been sealed up, nobody could read it. The Book of Mormon is not a book which can’t be read, nor where the plates unreadable. If the plates had been delivered to ‘learned’ men they could decipher them. The Book of Mormon does not contain all that was written on the plates. The Book of Mormon doesn’t fit the prophecy we read in Isaiah 29 even when you bend the meaning to try and get it to fit.

 

[fatboys]

I saw a thread which interested me so I copied it down and came back with my answer and it was gone. For whatever reason it disappeared off the thread I decided to go ahead and post my reply in separate threads this is one:

Several scriptures were quoted and an interpretation was sought:



This one always gets me head scratching when I discuss it with the missionaries. It’s a clear case of “if it doesn’t fit its symbolic, if it fits its literal” mentality. They tell me that the book is a literal book but the potter’s clay is seen as symbolic even though both references begin with something’ is like’, which in Bible jargon means it is symbolic. The book is not a literal book. Notice what is being liken to a book which can’t be read;

Isaiah 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:

It is the vision that is sealed up and liken to a book which can’t be read. Whose vision?

Isaiah 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

It is the vision God gave to the prophets and rulers that was sealed up LIKE a book that can’t be read, in other words they can see the writing but can’t understand the meaning. They see vision but can’t discern the meanings of them. Nowhere in verse 12 does it say the unlearned man could read it, in fact it says quite clearly he couldn’t. The vision had been sealed up, nobody could read it. The Book of Mormon is not a book which can’t be read, nor where the plates unreadable. If the plates had been delivered to ‘learned’ men they could decipher them. The Book of Mormon does not contain all that was written on the plates. The Book of Mormon doesn’t fit the prophecy we read in Isaiah 29 even when you bend the meaning to try and get it to fit.

It does say that the learned could not read it. Futher down is says that the wise men shall perish and the understanding their prudent men shall be hid. Meaning that to many times the learned and wise become to big for their britches. How better to bring the learned to humility that to have a unlearned man through God bring about the great and marvelous work. As with all visions and prophecies, there are meaning to only those who look. The blind will not see what is plain to another. It has all to do with sincerity of learning truth. So you do not have to scratch your head any more. It makes perfect sense to me, even from the first time I read, the spirit witnessed to me the meaning of. Then it was a time after that I had actually learned that it was an important part of the prophecy of the Book of Mormon. I really thought I had found something tha no one else had yet found. But it also confirmed to me that a lowely person such as me could learn a great and wonderful truth from the scriptures through revelation.

 

[Tawhano]

fatboys said:
...the spirit witnessed to me the meaning of...

Meaning what, the spirit doesn’t reveal things to me? As I pointed out and, as you always ignore the meat of my post, the unlearned man couldn’t read the book either. Try addressing each of the points I made instead of coming back with this rubbish that the spirit told you otherwise.

 

[A New Dawn]

Meaning what, the spirit doesn’t reveal things to me? As I pointed out and, as you always ignore the meat of my post, the unlearned man couldn’t read the book either. Try addressing each of the points I made instead of coming back with this rubbish that the spirit told you otherwise.

If the Spirit doesn't tell you otherwise about things, then maybe you should pray for discernment. The witnessing of the Spirit is how the Lord conveys His truths.

 

[Tawhano]

Jenda said:
If the Spirit doesn't tell you otherwise about things, then maybe you should pray for discernment.

I pray every time I study the Bible to be led by the Spirit. This is how I come to the conclusions I do. Most I see as common sense and find it difficult to discern how others simply can’t see that the scriptures, for the most part, aren’t confusing.

Jenda said:
The witnessing of the Spirit is how the Lord conveys His truths.

As oppose to the two or three witnesses of men as you stated in another thread?

 

[A New Dawn]

I pray every time I study the Bible to be led by the Spirit. This is how I come to the conclusions I do. Most I see as common sense and find it difficult to discern how others simply can’t see that the scriptures, for the most part, aren’t confusing.

I don't believe that the scriptures are confusing, but I believe that, just as the parables in specific, the scriptures, in general, have metaphorical meanings. That does not negate the apparent truth of them.

As oppose to the two or three witnesses of men as you stated in another thread?

If the Spirit gave the witnesses their testimony, then it is the same as the Spirit's testimony.

 

[Tawhano]

Jenda said:
I don't believe that the scriptures are confusing, but I believe that, just as the parables in specific, the scriptures, in general, have metaphorical meanings. That does not negate the apparent truth of them.

I am not sure what you mean by this. I don’t recall saying anything about the scriptures negating the truth, apparent or otherwise. The metaphorical meanings are mostly by-products of men’s imagination. Certainly they exist in the Bible but all too often people used that as an excuse to bring in their beliefs to scriptures when it isn’t there at all.

Jenda said:
If the Spirit gave the witnesses their testimony, then it is the same as the Spirit's testimony.

How do you know when the Spirit gives them its testimony? If two or three witnesses is all it takes then every religious doctrine would be true.

 

[A New Dawn]

I am not sure what you mean by this. I don’t recall saying anything about the scriptures negating the truth, apparent or otherwise. The metaphorical meanings are mostly by-products of men’s imagination. Certainly they exist in the Bible but all too often people used that as an excuse to bring in their beliefs to scriptures when it isn’t there at all.

I did not mean that the scriptures negated the truth, I meant that a metaphorical reading of the scriptures did not negate a literal reading of the scriptures.

(I'm sorry if that does not make sense to anyone but me, but that is the only way I know how to say it.)

How do you know when the Spirit gives them its testimony? If two or three witnesses is all it takes then every religious doctrine would be true.

If you ask, the Lord will reveal it to you by His Spirit.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given.

 

[Tawhano]

Jenda said:
If you ask, the Lord will reveal it to you by His Spirit.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given.

Yes I know all that but that doesn’t explain why you think you need the testimony of men to prove God’s word. God proves Himself to individuals.

Some printer who wrote a testimonial that he indeed saw the manuscripts and then used them to print the BoM doesn’t prove that it is of God. This is the point I am making.

 

[A New Dawn]

Yes I know all that but that doesn’t explain why you think you need the testimony of men to prove God’s word. God proves Himself to individuals.

Some printer who wrote a testimonial that he indeed saw the manuscripts and then used them to print the BoM doesn’t prove that it is of God. This is the point I am making.

Do you not have, like, prayer and/or testimony services in your church? If not, do you not share testimonies in other places? Maybe when you witness to the unchurched?

What purposes do those testimonies have?

 

[Tawhano]

Jenda said:
Do you not have, like, prayer and/or testimony services in your church?

Alas, I don’t have a church.

Jenda said:
If not, do you not share testimonies in other places? Maybe when you witness to the unchurched?

Yes, but my testimonies doesn’t prove God to people nor do I try to prove God to people.

Jenda said:
What purposes do those testimonies have?

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

So what has this to do with the topic?

 

[A New Dawn]

Yes, but my testimonies doesn’t prove God to people nor do I try to prove God to people.

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

So what has this to do with the topic?

A testimony is a testimony. God will bear witness to a testimony that is true, no matter the context. So He can bear witness to the testimony of the witnesses who claim to have seen the plates just as He would bear witness of your testimonies with Him. Otherwise, there is no reason to bear testimonies. That is the purpose of the testimonies of the three witnesses. To testify that God witnessed the truth unto them.

 

[Tawhano]

Jenda,

Then it just boils down to who you want to believe. Every religon claims that God testifies the truth to them. The beat goes on.

 

[A New Dawn]

Jenda,

Then it just boils down to who you want to believe. Every religon claims that God testifies the truth to them. The beat goes on.

I would say it boils down to whether you have a mind open to God's promptings, or if you believe that God doesn't do that thing anymore, and so have a closed mind.

I agree, though, with your other statement.

 

[Tawhano]

Jenda said:
I would say it boils down to whether you have a mind open to God's promptings, or if you believe that God doesn't do that thing anymore, and so have a closed mind.

Yeah, whatever, you have an open mind and mine is closed. She said, he said.

 

[Tawhano]

fatboys said:
As with all visions and prophecies, there are meaning to only those who look. The blind will not see what is plain to another.

This is exactly my point. I have demonstrated that you can not see the real meaning of those verses because you were taught otherwise. You came up with the incorrect interpretation because of outside influence and can not demonstrate how these verses say what you want them to say without referring to outside resources. If these outside resources were true then it would be easy to demonstrate your point of view, regardless if I believe it or not, but you haven’t even attempted to do that.

fatboys said:
So you do not have to scratch your head any more. It makes perfect sense to me, even from the first time I read, the spirit witnessed to me the meaning of.

I’m still scratching my head but I’m sure not waiting for a real discussion from you.