Isaiah 65:17-19 relates to the eternal state not some supposed future millennium

[hal4x]

and the elect are resurrected 1000 years prior.... on the last day.

The resurrection/rapture end of time has nothing to do with 1000 yrs but if you want to believe then believe it won't change anything jesus with appear a 2nd time it's all over

 

[Jamdoc]

The resurrection/rapture end of time has nothing to do with 1000 yrs but if you want to believe then believe it won't change anything jesus with appear a 2nd time it's all over

The bible says, that the elect are resurrected 1000 years prior to everyone else.

and Jesus said the resurrection of the elect.. is on the last day.
the last day is the 1000 years.

 

[hal4x]

The bible says, that the elect are resurrected 1000 years prior to everyone else.

and Jesus said the resurrection of the elect.. is on the last day.
the last day is the 1000 years.

Then no rapture right?

 

[Jamdoc]

Then no rapture right?

the resurrection is for those who died in Christ, the rapture is for those who are still alive when He comes.
The promise is that Jesus will not let all Christians be killed, there would be some flesh alive when He returns.
The rapture is the solving of the mystery of what happens to those who are alive when Jesus returns.

Because if you don't have a rapture, just the dead in Christ are resurrected and now you'd have a group of people in Christ, alive at His coming, who would still have to die and go through some secondary resurrection. The rapture means no, they would not die, but be changed from mortal to immortal and are counted with the first resurrection.

This is what Paul explains in 1 Corinthians 15, and 1 Thessalonians 4.
The Resurrection and Rapture is at the beginning of the Day of the Lord, when Jesus returns.
Final Judgement is at the end of the Day of the Lord,
The Day of the Lord is not 24 hours long, as to whether it's literally 1000 years or not, I don't know. It's a period of time when Jesus comes back and rules on the Earth, before the second resurrection and final judgement.

That's my takeaway.

 

[hal4x]

the resurrection is for those who died in Christ, the rapture is for those who are still alive when He comes.
The promise is that Jesus will not let all Christians be killed, there would be some flesh alive when He returns.
The rapture is the solving of the mystery of what happens to those who are alive when Jesus returns.

Because if you don't have a rapture, just the dead in Christ are resurrected and now you'd have a group of people in Christ, alive at His coming, who would still have to die and go through some secondary resurrection. The rapture means no, they would not die, but be changed from mortal to immortal and are counted with the first resurrection.

This is what Paul explains in 1 Corinthians 15, and 1 Thessalonians 4.
The Resurrection and Rapture is at the beginning of the Day of the Lord, when Jesus returns.
Final Judgement is at the end of the Day of the Lord,
The Day of the Lord is not 24 hours long, as to whether it's literally 1000 years or not, I don't know. It's a period of time when Jesus comes back and rules on the Earth, before the second resurrection and final judgement.

That's my takeaway.

Well with your rendition you've made Daniel and jesus incorrect when they say all in graves will hear jesus voice some raised to everlasting life and some to everlasting contempt. Don't make scripture separate what Jesus don't 1 and only 1 resurrection but if you want to believe in 2 when not 1 verse says 2 well that's on you not me. I don't want to continue with this circular discussion I've laid our what Jesus said that should suffice so I'm done

 

[Jamdoc]

Well with your rendition you've made Daniel and jesus incorrect when they say all in graves will hear jesus voice some raised to everlasting life and some to everlasting contempt. Don't make scripture separate what Jesus don't 1 and only 1 resurrection but if you want to believe in 2 when not 1 verse says 2 well that's on you not me. I don't want to continue with this circular discussion I've laid our what Jesus said that should suffice so I'm done

Revelation 20 has 2 resurrections.
and both are on the "last day".

John 5 is interesting, because Jesus actually has 2 resurrections in this passage as well

John 5

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Who is resurrected here? Those who hear the voice of the Son of God. Those in Christ.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

who is resurrected here? Everyone, just before judgement.

 

[hal4x]

Revelation 20 has 2 resurrections.
and both are on the "last day".

John 5 is interesting, because Jesus actually has 2 resurrections in this passage as well

John 5

Who is resurrected here? Those who hear the voice of the Son of God. Those in Christ.

who is resurrected here? Everyone, just before judgement.

It says all will live doesn't mean 2 resurrections. Jesus isn't wishy washy. All live to be judged don't they. You can't judge a dead person. Daniel 12 says same thing

 

[Jamdoc]

It says all will live doesn't mean 2 resurrections. Jesus isn't wishy washy. All live to be judged don't they. You can't judge a dead person. Daniel 12 says same thing

there's a first resurrection of just those in Christ, to rule with Him.
and there is a second resurrection of the rest of the dead.
to claim there's only one is to say Revelation 20 is wrong.

 

[Timtofly]

John 5 jesus said there's coming an hour when all who are in graves will here his voice and some willrise to everlasting life and some to everlasting contempt. Daniel 12 says same thing. John 6 jesus said 4 times (so he's driving home a point) he will raise up believers on the LAST DAY!!!. SO when we read in 1 thessalonians 4 that the DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE (resurrection) that would be the LAST DAY because Jesus said so. Do you see what not mentioned? A 7 year tribulation or a thousand year millennium. To make a pre mid or post tribulation rapture a reality you must do scriptural gymnastics to make it happen

Jesus said that hour was coming and already here:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

Lazarus heard that voice and came out of his grave. The OT redeemed heard the voice of Jesus, saying it is finished, and came out of their graves. No one tastes death who have been redeemed since the Cross. The soul leaves one body for the next, 2 Corinthians 5:1.

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Why would you rule out a last hour resurrection for the OT redeemed at the Cross? That hour already started a few weeks earlier with Lazarus. The rest of the dead will still wait for thousands of years, because that hour has not stopped, as many since the Cross, never entered the grave, nor tasted death, while the rest of the dead wait. Even some at the GWT Judgment will be given eternal life and redeemed. Because some will see the resurrection of life even at that point.

So I see it as an ongoing phenomenon, and some still offered eternal life at the end. You see it as all still taste death, and Jesus was not the Resurrection and the Life in the first century, but will only be the Resurrection and Life, when you think it all ends.

I don't see how you all can say the 70 weeks ended thousands of years ago, but still claim a future resurrection, that brings an end to the transgression, and offers eternal righteousness. Being stuck in the grave is still part of the transgression placed on Adam and all his offspring, no?

I see those already alive in Christ arise from Paradise, to meet those in the air rising from the earth, at the 5th Seal, before the 6th and 7th Seal are even opened. I see Jesus opening the 6th Seal on His way to Jerusalem to set up His throne and temple.

 

[Timtofly]

The last day is last day of time since a day is time related

So is a thousand years time related. All one thousand of those thousand years represents a year's worth of time. All belong to God as has the last 8,000 years or so worth of years of time.

 

[hal4x]

So is a thousand years time related. All one thousand of those thousand years represents a year's worth of time. All belong to God as has the last 8,000 years or so worth of years of time.

I have no clue what your trying to communicate. The phrase " a thousand" is used metaphorically throughout the bible so why in the most symbolic book of the bible are we to that " a thousand " in a wooden literal way. When people say they take the Bible literally but what they mean is taking every word in a wooden literal way. Literal when reading any book is the literal intent of the author not our opinion

 

[Timtofly]

Judgement is last day

The GWT Judgment is not even in time, nor a last day. It takes place outside of this creation, and the next creation. So time is not even relative at that GWT Judgment event.

 

[Timtofly]

It says all will live doesn't mean 2 resurrections. Jesus isn't wishy washy. All live to be judged don't they. You can't judge a dead person. Daniel 12 says same thing

Actually all outside of Christ are dead persons, when it comes to Judgment. Your body is not judged. You as a soul are judged as standing before Christ as dead.

For one who thinks a thousand years is symbolic, why declare a physical resurrection even has to take place? Are not both part of a physical universe, time and a body of flesh? You are denying the physical resurrections in Revelation 20 and the physicality of the thousand years, then you want a single point in time for a physical resurrection, that happens outside of time.

 

[hal4x]

Actually all outside of Christ are dead persons, when it comes to Judgment. Your body is not judged. You as a soul are judged as standing before Christ as dead.

For one who thinks a thousand years is symbolic, why declare a physical resurrection even has to take place? Are not both part of a physical universe, time and a body of flesh? You are denying the physical resurrections in Revelation 20 and the physicality of the thousand years, then you want a single point in time for a physical resurrection, that happens outside of time.

That's the point jesus was making last day of time is judgement day. That is the.literal intent of the author not a wooden literal day.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I was just referring to the idea that Thanos snapped his fingers and a massive change happened all over the universe instantly. That's not how the bible plays these things out. Not when even a day for the Lord is a much longer time period for us, roughly 1000 years.

But it's how many people see things.
they see Jesus coming back, Thanos snap, instant judgement for everyone and an instant perfect world.

... and you avoid the evidence that refutes your claim. That is the only way your arguments survives.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The bible says, that the elect are resurrected 1000 years prior to everyone else.

and Jesus said the resurrection of the elect.. is on the last day.
the last day is the 1000 years.

You interpret the rest of Scripture through the lens of your faulty opinion of Revelation 20 instead of interpreting Revelation 20 through the lens of the rest of Scripture. That would render Premil obsolete.

 

[Timtofly]

I have no clue what your trying to communicate. The phrase " a thousand" is used metaphorically throughout the bible so why in the most symbolic book of the bible are we to that " a thousand " in a wooden literal way. When people say they take the Bible literally but what they mean is taking every word in a wooden literal way. Literal when reading any book is the literal intent of the author not our opinion

Nope, no one takes the Bible wooden literal. That is just a smoke screen for "I don't care about the soon coming Day of the Lord".

It is lazeness to just asume the book of Revelation is the most symbolic book, therefore you have a: "I won't take anything in it literally nor seriously" attitude.

John literally meant a thousand years, so your opinion that it represents something different entirely, is missing John's intent.

I had no opinion until I read it for myself, along with all the other Scriptures on the same topic. No one had to explain a thing, nor explain away the chapter into something the chapter is not.

The phrase "Day of the Lord" does not mean 24 hours, but symbolic of something literal. But I assume you don't want to even know what the literal meaning is, as you only have two symbolic phrases to deal with, without a literal point at all.

You have your Scriptures you claim "a thousand" is just symbolic. I have mine that imply the Day of the Lord is symbolic.

 

[hal4x]

... and you avoid the evidence that refutes your claim. That is the only way your arguments survives.

If by Thanos you mean God then yes he brought time space matter into existence. God gave to man time God lives out of time. Jesus using DAY as a reference point so as to communicate to us what will happen at the end. To not look at it this way makes jesus disingenuous by saying I will raise up believers on the last day. Forget the a thousand metaphor that the bible uses as an indefinite period of time it's not a literal 1000.

 

[Timtofly]

That's the point jesus was making last day of time is judgement day. That is the.literal intent of the author not a wooden literal day.

The GWT Judgment is not the last day of time literally nor figuratively. Jesus never said a "day" is coming. Jesus said hour, and "hour" is not symbolic of "day".

The last hour of judgment was the Cross, for all the redeemed. That was Jesus in direct obedience to God, for the direct disobedience of Adam. For the redeemed that was the only "hour" and "day" of judgment. The redeemed are not the dead, but have passed from death into life via the second birth.

There was only one resurrection for the OT redeemed. My point is that Daniel sees some redeemed at the GWT Judgment. But most don't give those in Sheol a second chance. While at the same time you all keep the OT in death for thousands of years with no life at all. The hour of resurrection started with Lazarus over 1994 years ago.

Now Jesus taught a last day resurrection, and He was talking about the Cross, because that is when a resurrection happened. John 6:40.

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

This is echoed again by Jesus and Martha when Lazarus was already dead. John 11:23-27

"Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world."

So was it a lie that Lazarus was resurrected? Because if that happened then the last day resurrection was at the Cross, and Lazarus was a few days ahead of schedule. What theology am I defending that merely points out there was a resurrection of Lazarus and the OT redeemed at the Cross? What theology is directly expressed in Scripture without first studying and reading God's Word?

The last day resurrection mentioned by Jesus with Martha, and His disciples, along with the hour of resurrection, does not have to be in conjunction with nor cemented into the same thought as any Judgment, much less the GWT Judgment.

Even the thrones set up in Revelation 20:4 do not imply a single throne, nor single point of judgment. Those thrones do imply a judgment was handed down, and the first resurrection was awarded.

The only people who need a judgment were those who never experienced the second birth while physically alive, including those beheaded. They were not saved, they were beheaded to avoid the mark. Chopping off their head was the only option, other than the mark.

 

[hal4x]

The GWT Judgment is not the last day of time literally nor figuratively. Jesus never said a "day" is coming. Jesus said hour, and "hour" is not symbolic of "day".

The last hour of judgment was the Cross, for all the redeemed. That was Jesus in direct obedience to God, for the direct disobedience of Adam. For the redeemed that was the only "hour" and "day" of judgment. The redeemed are not the dead, but have passed from death into life via the second birth.

There was only one resurrection for the OT redeemed. My point is that Daniel sees some redeemed at the GWT Judgment. But most don't give those in Sheol a second chance. While at the same time you all keep the OT in death for thousands of years with no life at all. The hour of resurrection started with Lazarus over 1994 years ago.

Now Jesus taught a last day resurrection, and He was talking about the Cross, because that is when a resurrection happened. John 6:40.

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

This is echoed again by Jesus and Martha when Lazarus was already dead. John 11:23-27

"Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world."

So was it a lie that Lazarus was resurrected? Because if that happened then the last day resurrection was at the Cross, and Lazarus was a few days ahead of schedule. What theology am I defending that merely points out there was a resurrection of Lazarus and the OT redeemed at the Cross? What theology is directly expressed in Scripture without first studying and reading God's Word?

The last day resurrection mentioned by Jesus with Martha, and His disciples, along with the hour of resurrection, does not have to be in conjunction with nor cemented into the same thought as any Judgment, much less the GWT Judgment.

Even the thrones set up in Revelation 20:4 do not imply a single throne, nor single point of judgment. Those thrones do imply a judgment was handed down, and the first resurrection was awarded.

The only people who need a judgment were those who never experienced the second birth while physically alive, including those beheaded. They were not saved, they were beheaded to avoid the mark. Chopping off their head was the only option, other than the mark.

So let me gets this right when Jesus said in John 6 4 times concerning believers that he would raise them up on the last day he meant something eise right? Well I find that hard to believe so I'll believe jesus. I had enough with the circular arguments of various believeisms so I'll bow out