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Isaiah 53: A Contextual Discussion

LittleLambofJesus

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Actually, I do not blame Orthodox Jews for having something against Messianics and even in Christ-ianity there are some of them that do a good job of explaining why JESUS is their Messiah, but at the expense of "anti-law-jewish" Paul.

Most Christ-ian translations are just plain HORRIBLE and why I want to focus on that just as much as interpretation.

http://www.christianforums.com/t5546846-how-damaging-is-the-messianic-movement.html
how-damaging-is-the-messianic-movement.

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/paulthe.htm

We have seen that Paul's picture of God's sovereignty doesn't exist in the Scriptures. We might call this the DNA evidence against him (Doctrine Not Accurate). It is an important part of the case against him. But it is by no means all the evidence there is against his supposed authority. There is more than enough evidence to suggest that he was not even a true apostle of Yahshua let alone the greatest apostle who ever lived as he is so often eulogized.
 
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JoeWill

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Actually, I do not blame Orthodox Jews for having something against Messianics and even in Christ-ianity there are some of them that do a good job of explaining why JESUS is their Messiah, but at the expense of "anti-law-jewish" Paul.

Well don't be too hard on us Christians. We may be a bit heavy-footed but things aren't so easy from our side. When discussing with Jewish people I encounter a tendency for them to assume that just being Jewish gives them an innate ability to understand a passage of the Bible, whereas Christian sources are dismissed simply for being Christian - even if they happen to have studied for years.

We saw some of that on this thread, with Rashi's commentary being presented as the truth while all other interpretations that people gave had to be "substantiated". It was okay to begin with the claim that Isaiah 53 depicts Israel as the Servant but not okay for me to argue that the Servant is Jesus - which you call "replacement theology". A discussion requires more objectivity than that.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Well don't be too hard on us Christians
I was referring to a certain sect within Christ-ianity and certain people with certain views/beliefs that go against mainstream Christ-ianity.

Actually, I don't see how a true Orthodox Jew can come to Christ and still practice Judaism. I suppose it depends on what a Biblical Jew is today and where the word "jew" was coined from and why I brought up translations. Peace.

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jew.htm

The meaning of the word "Jew" in our Bible is not the same as the colloquial idiom.

In the Bible the word "Jew" means a resident of the land of Judaea regardless of their tribe, race or religion just as an Australian or Englishman may in fact be a Chinese, Negro or an Eskimo, or perhaps a member of the tribe of Judah (Judahite). According to the Greek Lexicon in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance:

This is confirmed by the Bible in the Old and New Testaments, Jewish historians such as Josephus, Professor of Medieval Jewish History at Tel Aviv University, A. N. Poliak in his book Khazaria (1944, 1951); American historian Professor Dunlop of Columbia University in his article on the Khazars in the Encyclopaedia Judaica (1971); Noam Chomsky in his book, Fateful Triangle, Arthur Koestler in his masterpiece, The Thirteenth Tribe; Professor Heinrich H. Graetz in his History of the Jews, p. 141 (1891-98); Soviet archaeologist M. I. Artamonov in Istoria Khazar, Benjamin Freedman in Facts are Facts, Chief Rabbi of the United States, the late Steven S. Wise, the Message of William Branham the Prophet of Malachi 4:5-6 and Revelation 10:7, every Jewish and all Gentile encyclopaedias affirm that barely any so-called Jew is an Israelite let alone Semitic. Note also that Judaism is Pharisaism based on the Talmud, which is the antithesis of pre-exilic Yahweh Torah or Yahwism, the Law and the Prophets, and accursed of God in Matthew 15:1-9, and Moses in Deuteronomy 5:22; 12:32).
 
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JoeWill

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What is your own faith?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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What is your own faith?
Just a Disciple of the Christ of YHWH who follows the Chief Shepherd wherever He goes which would make me a CHRIST-ian.

Hosea 13:14 "I will Ransom [06299 padah] them from the power of the grave; I will Redeem [01350 ga'al] them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave, I will be your destruction! Pity is hidden from My eyes.

1 Corinthians 7:23 with a price ye were bought/hgorasqhte <59>, become not servants of men;
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I am going to wait and see if Muffler Dragon wants to respond as I am very interested to here his interpretation from a Jewish view. Salam, Shalom and Peace.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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peepnklown

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Joe said:
alternative understanding of Isaiah 53.

I would do more research: for example; learn about the different forms of interpreting the Torah and Tanakh [PaRDeS or Pshat Remez Sod Drash e Sod].
The most important form for interpretation comes from Pshat; which means the intended meaning.
For example; if Isaiah says clearly that Israel is the Servant then that is the intended meaning; anything else would be conjecture or not plain in the text.

1 &#8211; An important rule in the forms of interpretation is that the drash understanding [or midrash] cannot be used to remove a passage of it&#8217;s Pshat intended meaning.
 
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JoeWill

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Thank you,

Of course you are right - I do need to find out more about the Jewish texts and methods of interpretation. The trouble is finding the time - I have to write a dissertation and hand it in pretty soon. Unfortunately, time limitations mean we tend to discuss and debate with the knowledge that's in our heads, rather than spending hours pouring over books and scouring the web for more info.

I haven't looked into Pshat yet, but alarm bells start ringing when you say the "intended meaning". With so much figurative and symbolic language in the Bible, the intended meaning can be hard to get.

From my own perspective, it is not as easy as arguing: "Isaiah says clearly that Israel is the Servant". For example in Isaiah 53:8, 10, God says:

"...for the transgressions of my people he [the Servant] was stricken...the Lord makes his life a guilt offering..."

The nation of Israel obviously qualifies as "my people" and the "guilt offering" was usually a substitionary offering where a ram was sacrified (see Leviticus 5:15, 5:16, 6:5). So if Israel is the Servant, then Israel is being sacrificed as a substitute for Israel. How does that work?

(Incidentally, this would seem to be the plain reading of those verses.)


Can the Servant in Isaiah be the Messiah?

A contextual discussion of Isaiah 53 is given by The scholar Barton Payne (Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy), but from a very different perspective than the one this thread started with.

Payne writes that:

There are five poetic sections we call "Servant Songs" in Isaiah that describe the ministry of the Servant (Isaiah 42:1-7, 49:1-9, 50:4-9, 52:13-53:14 and 61:1-3).

The five "songs" only once refer to the nation of Israel as God's servant (Isaiah 49:3) and then the passage immediately notes the failure of the Israelite nation to fulfil the requisite purposes of the Lord's righteous servant (Isaiah 49:4 cf. 42:19).

The passage proceeds to describe an individual who will succeed as God's righteous Servant, and thus become "Israel" as its ideal type. However, it is clear that no person from Israel's history, whether past, present or immediately future is able to satisfy such qualifications as the "sinless, resurrected life, and eventual triumph that distinguish the Servant of Yahweh" described in Isaiah 53.

The next question is "could the servant in Isaiah's five songs be the Messiah?" Payne writes that:

1) At the outset, both individuals are divinely chosen and uniquely righteous (Isaiah 42:1, 6; cf. Psalm 89:3-4, Isaiah 9:7, Jeremiah 23:5).

2) Both individuals are a witness to the peoples (Isaiah 49:6, 55;4).

3) The Messianic king is also called a naghidh "prince" (Isaiah 55:4) which is same term used by Daniel to describe his suffering Messiah (Daniel 9:25-26).

4) The same Holy Spirit which is to rest upon the Messiah in Isaiah 11:1-4 will also rest upon the Servant (Isaiah 42:1).

5) The humiliation of the Messiah at His first coming (Isaiah 7:15 cf. Zechariah 9:9, 13:7) is closely paralleled by the unpretentiousness of the Servant (Isaiah 53:1, 42:3).

6) The Messiah in Zechariah 3:8-9 and the figure in Isaiah 53 both have the function of dealing with men's iniquity.


So there are reasonable grounds to claim from the context of Isaiah 53 and the surrounding chapters, that the Servant is the Messiah (I believe Jesus) and not the nation of Israel.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Hi. Couldn't we say that JESUS is the New Israel, another words a type of New People that worship in Spirit and Truth and not in Temples and Sacrifices?

Btw, how do Christians view the "Jewish Man" in Zech 8:23 if JESUS is indeed the Messiah/Savior of Israel? Thanks.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Zechariah 8:23 Thus sayeth YHWH-of Hosts: in-Days, the-those, which They-shall-take-fast/hold a-hem/wing, Ten Mortals/Men/0582 'enowsh, from-all Tongues-of the-Nations.
And-They-take-fast/hold in-hem-of/03671 kanaph a-Man, a-Y@huwdiy, to-say We-are-going with-You that We-hear Elohiym with-You.

Mark 6:56 And wheresoever He went into villages, or into cities, or into fields/hamlets in the marketplaces, they place the being sick and were beseeching Him that only the fringe of the garment of Him they may be touching, and as manysoever as touch of Him/it, were saved.
 
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JoeWill

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How ya doing?

It's hard to express what we believe in a discussion with Jewish people without causing pain isn't it? The Isaiah 53 passage is important to us both but in different ways, so we grate against each other a bit.

I tend to speak what I see to be the truth from my heart without meaning to cause offence - although offence is sometimes taken. You might legitimately call Jesus "New Israel" but I would prefer to witness what the New Testament says - that he is "True" Israel. In John's Gospel chapter 15, when Jesus says "I am the true vine" he is saying "I am true Israel" because the vine was a common symbol of Israel. This may be the more painful message to give, but it is the one that represents God's word I believe.


With regard to Zechariah 8:23, I'll tell you what I've been told without ploughing through all the books to see if it holds together. I've heard that it refers to the future Jewish Christian revival, when there will be a great release of knowledge about the Bible, as Jewish rabbis who have such amazing knowledge of the scriptures come to read them with new eyes. In other words, Gentiles will be asking them to teach something about Yahweh from the Word.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Hi. But that knowledge will only come to them thru reading the NT/NC also. Jesus is the Beginning and End for Israel and Judah in my view.

Notice Isaiah 61 which JESUS quoted along with the day of vengeance of "OUR ELOHIYM". In fact, they themselves will need to view the Bible as "completely fulfilled" for them I think. Thoughs?

Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of YHWH,

John 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

Isaiah 61:2 And the day of vengeance of our 'Elohiym, To comfort all mourners

Reve 21:6 And He said to me, "It is done ! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts".
 
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JoeWill

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You'll have to elaborate on some of these points, but I know there have been, and are, Messianic rabbis who believe in Jesus without necessarily thinking that everything in the Bible concerning them has been fulfilled.

Rabbi Werthemier's testimony can probably still be found on the net somewhere.

Yes, here: http://www.theologos.net/e-books/Wertheimer.html

When I went to Jerusalem, I was told about the Messianic rabbi who regularly tries to witness to other Jews on the streets of Jerusalem and ends up in hospital for his efforts.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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When I went to Jerusalem, I was told about the Messianic rabbi who regularly tries to witness to other Jews on the streets of Jerusalem and ends up in hospital for his efforts.
I am sure Orthodox Jews would like to be left alone concerning their own future Messiah/Savior/Redeemer.

There are even JewsforAllah trying to convert them. I actually read the Bible as fulfilled for "ME" in Christ and in my view, it brings the Bible more "Alive" to me, but then, that is just me LOL.

Anyway, I am hoping some Jews can give their view on Exodus 3 over here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t5925329-question-on-exouds-3-and-i-am-hayah.html
 
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peepnklown

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Joe said:
With so much figurative and symbolic language in the Bible, the intended meaning can be hard to get.

The Pshat interpretation includes the literary style, historical and cultural setting and context so it might be hard in the sense of a lot of research but, the intended meaning cane be found.
I think you need a better translation: Judaica Press Complete Tanach
Isaiah 53:8 From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.
Isaiah 53:10 And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.
Joe said:
that the Servant is the Messiah

The problem comes from the fact that not a single time does Isaiah 53 mention the Messiah, not by the Hebrew term for Messiah nor the classic nicknames of the Messiah.
 
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JoeWill

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Thanks for writing back.

But I suspect that once literary style and historical and cultural factors are brought into the equation, one scholar's pshat interpretation can differ from another's.

Further, the evidence from the aggadic midrash is that a messianic interpretation of Isaiah 53 was one early Jewish view. So given that midrash was aimed at explicating the meaning of a verse, isn't it likely that some of these interpretors held a messianic view of Isaiah 53 from their 'pshat perspective' as well?


Thanks also for you alternative translation of the verses of Isaiah I quoted. My own sources tell me that the words shim and asham in the Hebrew text of Isaiah 53:10 indicate the making of a guilt offering. Asham is the word used for the guilt offering in Leviticus 5:14 and it is clear that substitutionary sacrifice is being made in Isaiah 53.

This is what is most important from my POV, because if the Servant in Isaiah 53 is the nation of Israel, then this verse would mean that Israel is being sacrificed as a substitute for Israel - which would not make sense.


In your quote of the Judaic Complete Tanaach translation, Isaiah says: "...the transgression of my people..."

In the same translation (verse 9), Isaiah seemingly depicts the Servant as an innocent man:

"...he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth."

To say that the Servant in Isaiah 53 is the Jewish nation of Israel is no easy or obvious interpretation.


You argue as others have tried, that neither the title "Messiah" or any of the messianic nicknames appear in the Servant Songs. Christians would say that the word "Servant" in the Servant Songs is a Messianic title!


Take care,

Joe.
 
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JoeWill

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This thread is getting quite old now, but I wouldn't want to leave it without offering a Christian perspective of how the words in Isaiah chapter 53, and other connected passages, prophesied the ministry of Jesus Christ many centuries before he was born.

This is not intended as a devastating proof or an argument that is beyond challenge. It is just an invitation to openly look at some of the words of Isaiah and see if he might have been talking about the person of Jesus. The translation used here is the Judaic Complete Tanaach version.



1) The Messiah would have a human birth

Isaiah 49:5 reads:&#8220;And now, the Lord, Who formed me from the womb as a servant to Him...&#8221;

Fulfilment in Jesus: His being born of a woman. Jesus was formed and called from the womb to serve a purpose, in a similar way as described of the prophet Jeremiah (Jeremiah 1:5).



2) The Messiah would be rejected by the Jewish nation of his day

Isaiah 53:3 reads:&#8220;Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.&#8221;

Fulfilment in Jesus: Jesus was not accepted as the Messiah by the nation of Israel.



3) The Messiah would face a judgement

Isaiah 53: reads:&#8220;From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell?&#8221;

Fulfilment in Jesus: The Roman historian, Tacitus (56 &#8211; c. 120 AD), confirms the record of the New Testament that Jesus was judged by Pontius Pilate and executed by his sentence..



4)The Messiah would be killed

Isaiah 53:9 reads: &#8220;For he was cut off from the land of the living...&#8221;

Fulfilment in Jesus: That Jesus was crucified is not just a Christian belief but an accepted historical fact. In addition to Tacitus&#8217; account of the crucifixion, Christian ossuaries (bone boxes) inscribed with the symbol of the cross have been discovered dating to around 50AD.



5)The Messiah would be wounded and pierced

Isaiah 53:5 reads:&#8220;But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.&#8221;

Fulfilment in Jesus: The Hebrew word mecholal translated as &#8220;pained&#8221; in this translation, can mean &#8220;wounded&#8221; and &#8220;pieced&#8221; from the root word chalal &#8211; &#8220;to pierce&#8221;. Jesus was both wounded and pierced when nails were driven through his hands and feet to secure him to the cross. Interestingly, the bones of a 1st century AD victim of crucifixion called Yehochanan, have been found with a large iron nail still fixed through one of the heel bones.



6) The Messiah would be disfigured in his death

Isaiah 52:14 reads:&#8220;As many wondered about you, &#8216;How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!&#8217;&#8221;

Fulfilment in Jesus: Roman crucifixions were preceded by flagellation, whereupon the victim was struck many times with a special kind of whip made of multiple stands. Each strand was impregnated with pieces of metal or bone designed to lacerate and tear pieces of flesh from the body. Jesus&#8217; appearance really would have been marred beyond that of any ordinary man.



7) The death of the Messiah would be thought of as judgement by God

Isaiah 53:4 reads: &#8220;Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.&#8221;

Fulfilment in Jesus: The Jewish nation used to hang on trees, the bodies of idolaters and blasphemers whom they had stoned to death. This was to show that these offenders were under God&#8217;s curse (cf. Deuteronomy 21:23). When crucifixion was introduced to Israel, the same reasoning was applied to one who had been crucified.



8) The Messiah would be counted as a "transgressor"

Isaiah 53:12 reads:&#8220;&#8230;he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.&#8221;

Fulfilment in Jesus: crucifixion was a form of execution that the Romans reserved for criminals and non-Romans. Thus, Jesus died a criminal&#8217;s death. Also, the Gospel writers record that Jesus was crucified between two thieves, which would mean that Jesus was counted with the transgressors in an additional way. This Gospel record cannot be easily dismissed as Jesus&#8217; crucifixion would have been witnessed by large numbers of people, who would have been able to contradict what was being said if the authors had invented this detail.



9) The Messiah would rise after his death

Isaiah 53:11 reads: &#8220;From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied&#8230;&#8221;

Isaiah 52:13 reads:&#8220;Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high.&#8221;

Fulfilment in Jesus: There are nine separate eyewitness accounts of Jesus&#8217; resurrection in the Bible. Sure, these have come under attack from sceptics but they are not so easy to dismiss. The followers of Jesus put their lives on the line to uphold their accounts, which is the not the actions of men who might have making the whole thing up.



10) The Messiah would become a light to the nations

Isaiah 49:6 reads:&#8220;And He said, &#8216;It is too light for you to be My servant, to establish the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the besieged of Israel, but I will make you a light of nations, so that My salvation shall be until the end of the earth.&#8217;&#8221;

Fulfilment in Jesus: Jesus can certainly be argued to be a light to the nations. Around 2 billion around the world today believe in him, and the words of Jesus are read more and translated more than any other literature. His mission to Jacob had a partial fulfilment with his first coming, when many of the first converts to Christianity were Jews; it will have a complete fulfilment when he returns as the &#8220;Messiah ben David&#8221;.
 
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