Isaiah 53:4 and Matthew 8:17

God paid the price for our sins, in Jesus. Jesus brought us peace with God and triumphed over sin. If everything that entered the world when sin did has been overcome, that should mean death too. And I don't mean the fact that we will rise again one day, I mean that none of us should die. If sickness has been conquered through the cross when sin was, and no one need ever be sick again, then no one should ever die either. But people do - Christians do, WOF teachers do. Yes I do believe in life after death and that they are in heaven, but their bodies should not have died in the first place. Sickness, ageing, death are all a result of the fall. If one of these was dealt with on the cross so we never have to suffer from it again on earth, why weren't the other two?

It would be rather cool if born again, redeemed, forgiven Christians never died, and unforgiven sinners did. The Kingdom of God would be here in no time.

Strong in Him said:

God paid the price for our sins, in Jesus. Jesus brought us peace with God and triumphed over sin. If everything that entered the world when sin did has been overcome, that should mean death too. And I don't mean the fact that we will rise again one day, I mean that none of us should die. If sickness has been conquered through the cross when sin was, and no one need ever be sick again, then no one should ever die either. But people do - Christians do, WOF teachers do. Yes I do believe in life after death and that they are in heaven, but their bodies should not have died in the first place. Sickness, ageing, death are all a result of the fall. If one of these was dealt with on the cross so we never have to suffer from it again on earth, why weren't the other two?

It would be rather cool if born again, redeemed, forgiven Christians never died, and unforgiven sinners did. The Kingdom of God would be here in no time.

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The Word tells us that our days are numbered and God knows every one. My grandmother passed from her earthly home to her heavenly home...yet no sickness came into play.

She was healthy right up until her spirit was no longer bound by flesh. I've no doubt she never 'felt' the sting of death. If we never got 'loosed' from our earthly bodies, we wouldn't be sharing paradise with Christ...it doesn't have to be called death. Aren't we all, as believers, already dead and buried with Christ and resurrected as new creations?

Hisgirl said:

The Word tells us that our days are numbered and God knows every one. My grandmother passed from her earthly home to her heavenly home...yet no sickness came into play.

She was healthy right up until her spirit was no longer bound by flesh. I've no doubt she never 'felt' the sting of death. If we never got 'loosed' from our earthly bodies, we wouldn't be sharing paradise with Christ...it doesn't have to be called death. Aren't we all, as believers, already dead and buried with Christ and resurrected as new creations?

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Oh my, amen and amen!

franky67 said:

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The message of Isaiah 53 is the suffering servant, verse 6 says the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him.

Not a prophesy of a Messiah who came with a purpose to heal, but of one who came to make the final sacrifice.

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But it was Matthew who said that Jesus healed many people to fulfil what the prophet Isaiah had said. And yes we do have to keep things in context. Isaiah 53: 5 says he was pierced for our transgressions, not our physical healing.

See, there is division over the way a passage of Scripture is interpreted, so it's not that clear. Christians don't debate that Jesus died for our sins, because he taught it, as did Paul and the disciples. We don't argue about whether or not we should forgive others - Jesus not only taught this, he lived it. We don't argue, or most of us don't anyway, about whether or not we should be born again, or receive the Holy Spirit, or pray. Jesus and the early church clearly taught these things. But we have discussion after discussion about whether Jesus died for our physical healing, and if our physical well being has already been purchased on the cross then why don't we all have it. It's not clear. If it is part of the Gospel and so important, why didn't Jesus spell it out really clearly so that we would be in no doubt?

Jesus said that he had come that people might have fulness of life, but that doesn't necessarily mean a perfect body. We might like to think it does, but our bodies are only temporal and God can still use us whether they are perfect or not. Many disabled people have very full lives, and those of us who know Jesus as well, have eternal life.

Strong in Him said:

But it was Matthew who said that Jesus healed many people to fulfil what the prophet Isaiah had said. And yes we do have to keep things in context. Isaiah 53: 5 says he was pierced for our transgressions, not our physical healing.

See, there is division over the way a passage of Scripture is interpreted, so it's not that clear. Christians don't debate that Jesus died for our sins, because he taught it, as did Paul and the disciples. We don't argue about whether or not we should forgive others - Jesus not only taught this, he lived it. We don't argue, or most of us don't anyway, about whether or not we should be born again, or receive the Holy Spirit, or pray. Jesus and the early church clearly taught these things. But we have discussion after discussion about whether Jesus died for our physical healing, and if our physical well being has already been purchased on the cross then why don't we all have it. It's not clear. If it is part of the Gospel and so important, why didn't Jesus spell it out really clearly so that we would be in no doubt?

Jesus said that he had come that people might have fulness of life, but that doesn't necessarily mean a perfect body. We might like to think it does, but our bodies are only temporal and God can still use us whether they are perfect or not. Many disabled people have very full lives, and those of us who know Jesus as well, have eternal life.

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But it is just that clear to some of us SiH. I honestly wish it was for you too. I don't know what the solution to that problem is, but I do know God loves us both so very much.

Hisgirl said:

The Word tells us that our days are numbered and God knows every one. My grandmother passed from her earthly home to her heavenly home...yet no sickness came into play.

She was healthy right up until her spirit was no longer bound by flesh. I've no doubt she never 'felt' the sting of death. If we never got 'loosed' from our earthly bodies, we wouldn't be sharing paradise with Christ...it doesn't have to be called death. Aren't we all, as believers, already dead and buried with Christ and resurrected as new creations?

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Yes, but what I was trying to say was that if sickness - which came in at the fall - has been dealt with on the cross, and there is no need for us to be sick any more, then by logical extension there should be no need for us to die any more. If all the effects of the fall were reversed on the cross, that should include ageing. Our bodies should never wear out. But we will all die one day - or fall asleep, or pass away, or whatever you prefer to call it. We will rise again, sure. But no one can avoid death - unless the Lord returns in their lifetime. Death is the final healing. We will become perfect and perfectly whole when our bodies pack up in this life.

Strong in Him said:

Yes, but what I was trying to say was that if sickness - which came in at the fall - has been dealt with on the cross, and there is no need for us to be sick any more, then by logical extension there should be no need for us to die any more. If all the effects of the fall were reversed on the cross, that should include ageing. Our bodies should never wear out. But we will all die one day - or fall asleep, or pass away, or whatever you prefer to call it. We will rise again, sure. But no one can avoid death - unless the Lord returns in their lifetime. Death is the final healing. We will become perfect and perfectly whole when our bodies pack up in this life.

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Death is not the "final healing". Death is an enemy defeated by our Lord.

The bible says that it has been "appointed" once for a man to die. I have died. It is no longer I who live but Christ Jesus my Lord who lives in me. My time here is assigned as an ambassador, I will at some point finish that assignment and return home, but I will not taste death.

TreeOfLife said:

But it is just that clear to some of us SiH. I honestly wish it was for you too. I don't know what the solution to that problem is,

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I don't know either, because no one can re-write the Bible, put words into Jesus' mouth that he didn't say, or go and ask Matthew/Isaiah what they really meant. Most of us have to rely on language experts/Bible teachers/theologians/commentators/evangelists to explain the meaning to us, and we all seem to pick the ones we like depending on our point of view. And I do believe that it is the Holy Spirit who interprets Scripture to us, but even this isn't simple, because two people can claim Spiritual inspiration and still come up with different results. Witness on this site; someone might say "I believe God is allowing my sickness to remain for the time being, for whatever reason. He will heal me, but he has the right to do it in his own time, and here are Scriptural examples of people who didn't immediately receive what they prayed for."
Others will say, with equal sincerity, "to claim that God allows sickness is to say that he causes it. He doesn't, because he is the sender of every good and perfect gift, and what's more, here is a Scripture to show that God dealt with our sickness on the cross and so an illness cannot remain in our bodies."

It's a stalemate - but it doesn't stop each side being totally sincere and trying to convince the others of their point of view.

TreeOfLife said:

but I do know God loves us both so very much.

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Now that I can say to.

Strong in Him said:

I don't know either, because no one can re-write the Bible, put words into Jesus' mouth that he didn't say, or go and ask Matthew/Isaiah what they really meant. Most of us have to rely on language experts/Bible teachers/theologians/commentators/evangelists to explain the meaning to us, and we all seem to pick the ones we like depending on our point of view. And I do believe that it is the Holy Spirit who interprets Scripture to us, but even this isn't simple, because two people can claim Spiritual inspiration and still come up with different results. Witness on this site; someone might say "I believe God is allowing my sickness to remain for the time being, for whatever reason. He will heal me, but he has the right to do it in his own time, and here are Scriptural examples of people who didn't immediately receive what they prayed for."
Others will say, with equal sincerity, "to claim that God allows sickness is to say that he causes it. He doesn't, because he is the sender of every good and perfect gift, and what's more, here is a Scripture to show that God dealt with our sickness on the cross and so an illness cannot remain in our bodies."

It's a stalemate - but it doesn't stop each side being totally sincere and trying to convince the others of their point of view.



Now that I can say to.

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Just so we are absolutely clear, I certainly do not need any re-writing to support my position. Be careful of the accusations you infer.

Rather than going round and round in circles, does anyone fancy coming to this thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/t3120480-prayer-requests-thread-bear-one-anothers-burden.html&page=3

Share a prayer request or pray for someone else

TreeOfLife said:

Just so we are absolutely clear, I certainly do not need any re-writing to support my position. Be careful of the accusations you infer.

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I wasn't suggesting you do. And I wasn't accusing you of anything.

Strong in Him said:

Matthew was writing for Jews. His aim was to show that Jesus was the promised Messiah, and he quoted the Scriptures that Jesus fulfilled to show this. Isaiah prophesied that the Messiah would heal - and Jesus healed. People seem to have linked this verse from Matthew with the next verse from Isaiah and concluded that it means that physical healing is guaranteed by Jesus' death. It does not say that.

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But what does this verse say:

Isaiah 53:

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.


It doesnt say:

4 Surely he took up their infirmities
and carried their sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds they were (or they will be) healed.


Its says 'our' again and again. Its talking about past, present and future 'our'. Its talking to us. By his wwounds we are healed. 'We' . God didnt say 'they', that one generation. Its all believers. When we look to the cross of Jesus Christ we will be saved and we will be healed. The grammatical tense in isaiah 53 cannot support a one generation only idea. When Matthew used this in Matt 8:17 its talking in three tenses: past, present and future. EVERYONE!

lismore said:

But what does this verse say:

Isaiah 53:

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.


It doesnt say:

4 Surely he took up their infirmities
and carried their sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds they were (or they will be) healed.


Its says 'our' again and again. Its talking about past, present and future 'our'. Its talking to us. By his wwounds we are healed. 'We' . God didnt say 'they', that one generation. Its all believers. When we look to the cross of Jesus Christ we will be saved and we will be healed. The grammatical tense in isaiah 53 cannot support a one generation only idea. When Matthew used this in Matt 8:17 its talking in three tenses: past, present and future. EVERYONE!

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Well do you think that God's a liar then? Because I haven't been healed, physically, by his wounds. Many Christians, born again Chrtistians who accepted the sacrifice that Christ made on the cross, and read the Scriptures for themselves, have bcome ill, prayed for healing, not received it and died. Some WOF teachers have not been healed by his wounds - they have been healed by surgery or are being healed by medicines and - in one case if I remember correctly - a pacemaker.

Either this is the correct way of interpreting Isaiah 53, in which case it should be obvious to everyone who reads it, all Christians receive physical healing when they receive salvation, and no one anywhere ever questions this doctrine or the WOF movement; or it isn't the correct way of interpreting it.

Strong in Him said:

Well do you think that God's a liar then? .

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Hi there

How are you.

Im not saying we receive healing automatically at the moment of salvation, Im saying both salvation and healing are in Jesus Christ, El Shaddai, the Mighty God, the messiah! He is my saviour, my healer.

I dont think its a good foundation to start questioning promises..............on circumstances. God's promises are greater than lifes problems. If a promise didnt seem to work in some situations, does that mean its not still a promise? What about the situations where it does work, does that nullify the situations where it didnt? Or could there be something in the situation where it didnt seem to work that needs examination, rather than the promise itself

Isaiah 53 is not referring to one generation, its past, present and future- all generations. This is obvious grammatically. 'Our', 'our', 'we'. Isaiah was even referring it to his generation, Matthew to his, me to mine.

Why bring WOF teachers into it? No-one has yet mentioned WOF teachers. Its Jesus Christ im talking about. he existed before WOF movement, people have healed in Jesus name all through the years when they realised who Jesus is and believed in him. Take Finlay Munro for example, the Scottish Miracle worker from the 1830s. He received the word from Jesus in Matthew 10:8. He came to the conclusion that if he had faith he could perform miracles and he performed them. Jesus said 'Nothing is impossible for he who believes' Mark 9:43. If we take Jesus at his word then doors open. If Jesus had wanted Mark 9:43 qualified, he would have qualified it. He either means what he says or he doesnt.

If you are in need of healing dont give up. Dont look to circumstances, look to Jesus the healer. he loves you. he is filled with compassion. He has not changed. All he needs is the revelation in your heart of who he is (Matthew 16) the spark to the keys of the kingdom and a little seed of faith. I have had healing in my life myself, I was in a life threatening position as a baby but a dear lady stood up by faith at a Morris Cerrello meeting for me, like the faith of the centurion and I was healed. Praise God for the faith of this dear lady. If faith didnt work, perhaps I would not be around to type this.

So never give up. Remember the persistent widow in luke 18? Jesus told this parable to tells us to pray and never give up.

lismore said:

Hi there

How are you.

I dont think its a good foundation to start questioning promises..............circumstances. God's promises are greater than lifes problems. If a promise didnt seem to work in some situations, does that mean its not still a promise? What about the situations where it does work, does that nullify the situations where it didnt? Or could there be something in the situation where it didnt seem to work that needs examination, rather than the promise itself

Isaiah 53 is not referring to one generation, its past, present and future- all generations. This is obvious grammatically. 'Our', 'our', 'we'. Isaiah was even referring it to his generation, Matthew to his, me to mine.

Why bring WOF teachers into it? No-one has yet mentioned WOF teachers. Its Jesus Christ im talking about. he existed before WOF movement, people have healed in Jesus name all through the years when they realised who Jesus is and believed in him. Take Finlay Munro for example, the Scottish Miracle worker from the 1830s. He received the word from Jesus in Matthew 10:8. He came to the conclusion that if he had faith he could perform miracles and he performed them. Jesus said 'Nothing is impossible for he who believes' Mark 9:43. If we take Jesus at his word then doors open. If Jesus had wanted Mark 9:43 qualified, he would have qualified it. He either means what he says or he doesnt.

If you are in need of healing dont give up. Dont look to circumstances, look to Jesus the healer. he loves you. he is filled with compassion. He has not changed. All he needs is the revelation in your heart of who he is (Matthew 16) the spark to the keys of the kingdom and a little seed of faith. I have had healing in my life myself, I was in a life threatening position as a baby but a dear lady stood up by faith at a Morris Cerrello meeting for me, like the faith of the centurion and I was healed. Praise God for the faith of this dear lady. If faith didnt work, perhaps I would not be around to type this.

So never give up. Remember the persistent widow in luke 18? Jesus told this parable to tells us to pray and never give up.

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Hi there,

Sorry, I didn't mean my last post to sound harsh. I think I'm off to bed now, but will read your post carefully tomorrow - or rather, when I get up later today.

Strong in Him said:

Hi there,

Sorry, I didn't mean my last post to sound harsh. I think I'm off to bed now, but will read your post carefully tomorrow - or rather, when I get up later today.

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Have a good sleep . Please dont get the impression im getting at you. All im saying is that getting healing might be a battle, but that battle belongs to the Lord Jesus Christ. We are standing together, agreeing, for your healing in the name of Jesus.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Healing was purchased for us in the atonement of our Lord[/FONT]

http://sg.geocities.com/saltandlight5/healingintheatonement.html

TreeOfLife said:

Death is not the "final healing". Death is an enemy defeated by our Lord.

*****

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Um, I think it’s the resurrection from the dead that is the ultimate healing.

Sincerely,
~Anna Mull