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Isaac's Story

Voegelin

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The "look who would have not been born" argument doesn't work because the Culture of Death is based upon life having no intrinsic value, utilitarianism and arrogance. Those who do not accept life as sacred are not going to accept potential benefits to society a life may have. For every person cited who may have been aborted, wasn't and contributed to society, the Culture of Death will counter with ten they feel were better off dead.
 
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JGG

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Voegelin said:
The "look who would have not been born" argument doesn't work because the Culture of Death is based upon life having no intrinsic value, utilitarianism and arrogance. Those who do not accept life as sacred are not going to accept potential benefits to society a life may have. For every person cited who may have been aborted, wasn't and contributed to society, the Culture of Death will counter with ten they feel were better off dead.

For the record, I did not. My argument is that if you want to pick out a single event that would have led to the non-existence of someone, then it is only logical to point out every event that would have led to the non-existence of the same person. For instance, if Isaac's parents had had sex on Tuesday night instead of Wednesday night then...poof, no Isaac Newton. There's my argument for only ever having sex on Wednesdays. Of course this ignores the fact that every event leading up to Newton's birth (and education in physics) are dependent on the events preceding it, throughout his ancestory, and into infinity. This is an absurd undertaking, as eventually one "rule" would inevitably contradict another.

Surely you can see the absrudity of the hindsight fallacy?

Culture of Death? Yeah, right. You keep dreamin' that all of the "theys" are the evildoers.
 
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TuxThePenguin

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Voegelin said:
The "look who would have not been born" argument doesn't work because the Culture of Death is based upon life having no intrinsic value, utilitarianism and arrogance. Those who do not accept life as sacred are not going to accept potential benefits to society a life may have. For every person cited who may have been aborted, wasn't and contributed to society, the Culture of Death will counter with ten they feel were better off dead.

You might argue that life doesn't have any intrinsic value, That those of us that get the chance to exist, get and give value in our interactions in this existance.

I am a function of the specific sperm and the specific egg during my conception. modified through time by experience. If a different sperm had hit home i'd be a different 'me'. And during normal conception There may have been quite a few 'me`s'
"neck and neck at the finishing post". Therefore I am lucky to be the winning 'me' To waste the opportunity well..... would be a waste.
Being the lucky me I want to enjoy and give 'value' and recieve it. The value can be however you define it. "Love" "Friendship" may be two elements of value.
I also want to inconvienience others as little as possible and generally follow the golden rule . This ensures that I don't go on a murdering rampage or anything.
If there is a god or gods I will surely meet one or all of them when I die and I'd have a few difficult questions for him/them.
If not it is back to the same nothingness from before we were conceieved.

If I harm people as little as possible and help them as much as possible how is that arrogant.
Sexual Reproduction is complicated by our interlect. But nature dictates that occationally we're going to get another 'guy who discovered fire'/Newton/Einstein/Asimov wonderkind no matter how many zygotes don't make it to birth.
We probably need another before we fritter away all the earths resources. (but hey i'm feeling pessimistic today)

I cannot see how this naturally would lead to a 'Culture of Death' Please could you explain.
I would say that life began at conciousness.
i.e able to control some body function and begin to understand (on the most basic neural level) about stimuli.

and I believe life ends at brain-death. (We can discuss euthanasia another time)

I hold that I am not of 'the Culture of Death' if you think I am wrong please show me in what way.

Note:
I have used the male pronoun - this is for readability and not to snub some godesses out there.
 
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Nov 11, 2004
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So Tux ; because you reject a certain dictionary, it's impossible to say that someone is pregnant with: a baby?

The reference of my post was not a repost.

I think the story makes you consider the possibilities, as people in hard situations are often encouraged to abort.

There is no fallacy in considering hindsight.
 
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MrSluagh

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Voegelin said:
The "look who would have not been born" argument doesn't work because the Culture of Death is based upon life having no intrinsic value, utilitarianism and arrogance. Those who do not accept life as sacred are not going to accept potential benefits to society a life may have. For every person cited who may have been aborted, wasn't and contributed to society, the Culture of Death will counter with ten they feel were better off dead.

My argument was different. "Isaac's Story" essentially implies that if someone avoids a risk, she must not want the best possible outcome of that risk. This is not so; avoiding a risk usually results from deciding that the severity and likelihood of the risk's possible negative consequences outweigh those of the possible positive consequences.

The "But you could bear a genius!" argument is a converse fallacy of accident. It turns a special case into a generalization by treating a remote possibility as a likely result. And I thought Christianity was against gambling.


Middlemoor said:
So Tux ; because you reject a certain dictionary, it's impossible to say that someone is pregnant with: a baby?

This whole dictionary debate is a red herring. Semantics don't make babies.
 
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MrSluagh

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Middlemoor said:
The arguement is just that Issac's mother had it bad, therefore in today's society she might be encouraged to abort.

It's not neccessarily calling anything a "likely result", just that after abortion we will never know.

Yes, and in the second scenario in my first post in this thread, we will never know whether Jill and Bob could've taken down that bank robber, shot up the rest and saved the day. That doesn't mean that Jill didn't make the wise choice by playing it safe.

Say a pregnant woman be forced to quit school, be disowned by her parents, and support her baby on minimum wage, leaving her dreams in the dust, if she had her baby. Telling her she might raise the next Newton won't comfort her, when such an outcome is so unlikely, and a more dire one so plausible.
 
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MrSluagh

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Middlemoor said:
Tackling a bank robber is a whole different scenario from having a baby.

It's an analogy. Yes, they're different situations, but they are also similar in a way that highlights my point. When Shakespeare said "All the world's a stage,/And all the men and women merely players" he was not making a hypothesis that Earth is actually flat and made of wooden planks, or that people's emotions and actions are not genuine, but prescribed by a pre-memorized script for the entertainment of an invisible audience. In fact, he probably meant to highlight the way in which people often act purely to impress others and take on different roles at different times in their lives, much like actors.

Similarly, I have drawn a parallel between two otherwise different situations. In doing so, I have illustrated a flaw in a type of logic that you applied to one situation by applying it to another.

But there's hope. An analogy is no formidable juggernaut of reason; you can refute it! All you have to do is find a flaw in my analogy, and then explain it to me.

For instance, if I said that since dogs and tables both have legs, tables should be able to run like dogs, my analogy would be flawed for two reasons. First, tables are not alive, mechanical, or otherwise endowed with the joints and energy that would allow them to move under their own force. Second, even if tables were able to move, there is no reason to assume that they would run like dogs, since many animals with legs do not use them like dogs do. Furthermore, a whale's flippers are structurally similar to a dog's legs, but whales use their flippers to swim rather than to walk on land.

If you want to refute my argument, come up with a reason why the situations in my analogy are not similar in a way that would support my argument. Pointing out how they are different in other ways will not refute my argument, in the same way that pointing out that the ground is not made of wood will not disprove that the world is like a stage, in the way that Shakespeare meant.

Edit: Perhaps I should summarize my analogy one more time, just so it's clear:

A pregnant woman choosing to have a baby because the baby could grow up to be a super-genius when she cannot support it and it would significantly hinder her is like a hostage in a bank robbery tackling a robber in an attempt to stop the robbery. Both people are taking risks which are likely to result in dire consequences (the hostage gets shot/the woman and her baby languish in poverty) on the off chance that they will have beneficial consequences (the hostage stops the robbery/the woman's baby grows up to be the next Isaac Newton).
 
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crumbs2000

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Middlemoor said:
...but people have sex on a whim, which commonly results in pregnancy and abortion.

Some people have sex not on a whim that results in pregnancy? Maybe idiotic teenagers who have not had any sex education because their christian parents haven't told them what to do in such situations excpet - 'abstain', like that really works! :scratch:

People have sex in the heat of the moment when it gets really hot!!! Not on a whim! And most intelligent/responsible people are aware of STD's and the risk of getting someone pregnant.
 
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TuxThePenguin

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crumbs2000 said:
Tux, can I give you a case of beer for that one? That made me laugh so much.

Thanks, It was a spur of the moment thing but I never turn down Beer :yum:

I was more proud of my next post as I spent a long time phrasing it correctly.
http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=25548430&postcount=23

I'm still waiting for Voegelin's (or anyones) response showing how I'm part of the culture of death

on a side issue:
Middlemoor: If I am wrong to ignore 1 dictionary definition why are you not wrong in ignoring all the others? By all definitions bar that one a woman can be pregnant with a zygote and then a fetus and can give birth to a baby.
MrSluagh was right about it being semantics. I was only pointing out that the whole page linked to uses emotive language and bible quotes rarther than any cform of logic.

Edit: spelling
 
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