Is your faith based on a false hope?

[Biff]

I've had people tell me that "IF" they are wrong on the pre tribulational timing of Jesus' appearance, and He did not keep them out of the great tribulation, then they would no longer believe.

Think on these three things...

#1. Revelation 3:9 is a promise to the church at Philadelphia, nearly 2000 years ago, and is based on certain conditions. Do you personally know what "keeping the word of His patience" is?
It is not what some think. Read Mal.4:1-2; 2 Pet.2:9; Matt.24:13; Rom. 5:3; James 5:7; Heb.10:36-37; Rev. 1:9; 13:10; 14:12 to find out.

#2. Many (especially pre tribbers) are taught to believe that we won't be here to go through the tribulation when it hits. Is that so important???
What's really important is not to be concerned so much with our having or not having to go through some kind of trial and persecution for our faith in Christ (because we will), but that we should be concerned with the Timing (Eschatology) of His Second Coming. WHY? "SO THAT WE KNOW THE TRUTH AND ARE NOT DECEIVED by false teachings."
In other words, we should be concerned only with what God's word is telling us, without any bias and without us putting our two cents into it to make it mean something else.

#3. One of the clearest scriptures I know on the second coming of Christ is 2 Corinthians 2:1-3.
In it Paul speaks of the coming of the Lord "AND" of our being gathered together unto Him in One verse, as it is being held and presented as One, Single Event.

[1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.]

In 2 Thessalonians 2 Paul is saying that, "That Day (when the Lord comes and we are gathered unto Him) will not occur until AFTER the falling away come first, and the man of sin is revealed".

Now if this is true (and it is) then how do you propose that we get certain believers to forget about their selfish need of escaping the great tribulation, and instead just focus on the word of God and what it says... especially Matthew 24 concerning the end times, and all come to the knowledge of the truth as one?

Biff

I was all set to teach pre trib. when the Lord intervened and opened my understanding of 2 Cor.2:1-3, to study without bias, comparing "His" word with "His" word, and not wirh "mans" teachings.
Shortly after, the walls came tumbling down!

 

[OttawaUk]

If people are putting conditions on their Faith, then that doesn't sound like Faith to me.

Faith in Christ is trusting in Him no matter what. Sure we can have doubts, struggles, questions, pains, anxieties, worries, and fears - our walks will be a never ending spiritual battle. However, for someone to say their Faith is conditional on a pre-trib Rapture, well they probably don't understand why Christ needed to die for us in the first place. We need Christ, because without Him we are guilty, dead, sinners destined for Hell. The Wrath of God abides on unbelievers.

The trib will be nothing compared to an eternity in Hell, seperated from God forever.

OU

 

[JesusServant]

If people are putting conditions on their Faith, then that doesn't sound like Faith to me.

Faith in Christ is trusting in Him no matter what. Sure we can have doubts, struggles, questions, pains, anxieties, worries, and fears - our walks will be a never ending spiritual battle. However, for someone to say their Faith is conditional on a pre-trib Rapture, well they probably don't understand why Christ needed to die for us in the first place. We need Christ, because without Him we are guilty, dead, sinners destined for Hell. The Wrath of God abides on unbelievers.

The trib will be nothing compared to an eternity in Hell, seperated from God forever.

OU

There is no eternity in hell, go back to the basics before you dabble in eschatology. What kind of a God would do that?

 

[thereselittleflower]

I've had people tell me that "IF" they are wrong on the pre tribulational timing of Jesus' appearance, and He did not keep them out of the great tribulation, then they would no longer believe.

This is my greatest concern with the Pre-trib teaching.

Now, I no longer believe in a 7 year tribulation either, but I do believe that tribulation/chastisement will come.

A faith that is based on escaping we are told we will have in scripture is not a real faith.

Paul teaches us to learn to become content whether we have much or are in want, whether we are in safety or face persecution and trials.

I am concerned, especially for those in America, who have faced very little, if any, of the tribulation our brothers and sisters in Christ face and have faced in many parts of the world. Last century saw more martyrs for the faith than, I believe, all the presceeding years in the entire history of the Church put together.

We in America seem particulary insulated from such things. It is only in those countries which do not face terrible persecution that such beliefs as dispensationalism and a pre-trib rapture find any substantial ground. In those countries where Chrisitians are living with serious persecution such beliefs are considered fanciful.

This desire to escape persecution and tribulation is not in line with what the bible tells us to expect. We will have tribulation:

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
​

Jesus said this about the type of response to tribulation you spoke of above:

Mat 13:5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

Mat 13:6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.



Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
​

A message which predisposes people to reject Christ if they have to endure tribulation is a dangerous messsage IMHO.

I was all set to teach pre trib. when the Lord intervened and opened my understanding of 2 Cor.2:1-3, to study without bias, comparing "His" word with "His" word, and not wirh "mans" teachings.
Shortly after, the walls came tumbling down!

Yes, there is only one future coming of Christ, not two with one being a secret coming that only the priviledged get to see.

This is where the walls started tumbling down for me too.


When one digs even deeper into dispenationalist eschatology, which is primarily based on a requirement for Israel to be restored to their land based on the promise of God to Abraham in Genesis, one finds that the scriptures tell us that those promises by God regarding the land to Abraham have been fulfilled. . . .

Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.
​

The Lord gave unto the Jews ALL the land promised to Abraham, and they possessed it, all.


All came to pass.


There is no future fulfillment of this prophecy.


Everything revovling around the land in dispensationalism (the popular modern version of pre-millenialism), and this includes most dispensationalist beliefs, is based on the promise of the land given to Abraham. This includes the 7 year tribulation, the resotration of the Jewish nation and the 1000 year millenial reign of Christ. It assumes this promise has not been fulfilled, and that there is still a future fulfillment of this promise.

But the scriptures tell us it has all been fulfilled.

This means a belief in the 7 year tibulation and the resulting 1000 year reign of Christ from Jerusalem and restored Jewish nation with Jesus as their King, which is all based on the idea that God is not done with Israel yet and will restore them as a nation because of His promise to Abraham, is without solid scriptural basis.


This is why I am no longer pre-millenialist.


Peace

 

[thereselittleflower]

If people are putting conditions on their Faith, then that doesn't sound like Faith to me.

Faith in Christ is trusting in Him no matter what. Sure we can have doubts, struggles, questions, pains, anxieties, worries, and fears - our walks will be a never ending spiritual battle. However, for someone to say their Faith is conditional on a pre-trib Rapture, well they probably don't understand why Christ needed to die for us in the first place. We need Christ, because without Him we are guilty, dead, sinners destined for Hell. The Wrath of God abides on unbelievers.

The trib will be nothing compared to an eternity in Hell, seperated from God forever.

OU

Exactly. There will be tribulation and escapists beliefs can keep many from preparing spiritual for such times.



Peace

 

[Biff]

Most blessed of all women, pray for me, a sinner

She's dead! If you want to have someone hear you, pray to the Son of living God!

 

[Biff]

If people are putting conditions on their Faith, then that doesn't sound like Faith to me.

There are no conditions! Faith is faith - however,

Ephesians 4:11-12 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

That's all I'm talking about. Let us go on - Heb.6:1.
It's time for all of us to grow up and stick only with what "the word of God" says, not man's interpretation (and I don't care who they are - Rom.2:11).

Biff

 

[Biff]

There is no eternity in hell, go back to the basics before you dabble in eschatology. What kind of a God would do that?

What kind of God would do what???

 

[Bulldog]

She's dead! If you want to have someone hear you, pray to the Son of living God!

You would do well to stay on topic. One comment like that can veer th ehwole thread in a new direction...

 

[OttawaUk]

There is no eternity in hell, go back to the basics before you dabble in eschatology. What kind of a God would do that?

I suggest you read the Word. Your idolatrous image of God is incorrect. He will punish sin, and the fate of the unsaved (those not written in the Book of Life) is the eternal lake of fire.

If you want to talk about semantics, I did state it incorrectly as there is no eternal Hell, but there certainly is an eternal lake of fire where Hell and all the unsaved will be thrown.

See for yourself.

http://www.lookup.org/hell.htm

OU

 

[thereselittleflower]

She's dead! If you want to have someone hear you, pray to the Son of living God!

Biff, every time I ask Mary to pray for me I am also praying to Jesus, for everything given to Mary goes directly to Jesus.

She can no more stands in the way of Jesus than the air can stand in the way of the Sun.


And, no, she's not dead. . God is not the God of the dead, but of the Living, just like He is of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.



Peace

 

[JesusServant]

I suggest you read the Word. Your idolatrous image of God is incorrect. He will punish sin, and the fate of the unsaved (those not written in the Book of Life) is the eternal lake of fire.

If you want to talk about semantics, I did state it incorrectly as there is no eternal Hell, but there certainly is an eternal lake of fire where Hell and all the unsaved will be thrown.

See for yourself.

http://www.lookup.org/hell.htm

OU

A website isn't going to change my mind sir. And I do read the Word and you are misusing the word idolatrous. I said nothing idolatrous... Sigh...

I'm sure you'll go on and on about the Lazarus and rich man PARABLE. (Lazarus must have one GIANT bosom in Heaven huh)

"Friends, I just want to warn you about the truth. I am here to help you. Keep coming and listening to me with fear and trembling and tithe or you'll burn in hell." Yada yada been there heard that.

I digress, I don't want to take this thread off topic. I just get upset when people try to use scare tactics and misrepresent the truth. You never know when an unbeliever is going to be watching. This is one of the reasons I did not believe for so long.

Remember, the word gospel means good news.

 

[inhisdebt]

There is no eternity in hell, go back to the basics before you dabble in eschatology. What kind of a God would do that?

God didnt do that, by definition ,hell is eternal seperation from God, Man has been given the choice many simply choose not to believe, a choice that leads to the lake of fire. Tell me this, what kind of father would sacrifice his son, and then accept some other sacrifice. Christ was the only acceptable sacrifice there is no other option . The biggest reason for the apostacy is not because christians dont believe in heaven, its because they dont believe in hell. If christians truly believed in hell, there would be no stopping the christian army from getting the message out. Just try getting a group from your church to go and knock on doors and simply invite others to church its like pulling teeth, in fact most christians would prefer to have teeth pulled.
Ill grant you hell should not be the christian sales pitch, but the reality of hell should be the whip, on our backs.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I've had people tell me that "IF" they are wrong on the pre tribulational timing of Jesus' appearance, and He did not keep them out of the great tribulation, then they would no longer believe.

I haven't had people tell me that at all. As a pretribber, my faith is in Jesus Christ regardless.
Now I have seen some get upset at the comments made against the character of pretribbers themelves and make a foolish statment similar to what you wrote - but that was just hurt speaking.

 

[OttawaUk]

A website isn't going to change my mind sir. And I do read the Word and you are misusing the word idolatrous. I said nothing idolatrous... Sigh...

I'm sure you'll go on and on about the Lazarus and rich man PARABLE. (Lazarus must have one GIANT bosom in Heaven huh)

"Friends, I just want to warn you about the truth. I am here to help you. Keep coming and listening to me with fear and trembling and tithe or you'll burn in hell." Yada yada been there heard that.

I digress, I don't want to take this thread off topic. I just get upset when people try to use scare tactics and misrepresent the truth. You never know when an unbeliever is going to be watching. This is one of the reasons I did not believe for so long.

Remember, the word gospel means good news.

The Gospel isn't at question here, what's at question is your idea that Hell or the lake of fire doesn't exist. Read the scriptures, it clearly does exist.

Idolatry = creating a false god.

That website outlines all the scriptures pertaining to Hell, Hades, the pit, and the lake of fire.

As you can clearly see by the words of our Saviour, God has prepared the lake of fire for Satan and his angels.

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS." (Matthew 25:41)

People are going to end up in the eternal lake of fire, along with Satan and his angels. Its in God's Word all over the place.

Make no mistake about it, God is loving, but He is also Just. He will punish sinners, and it will happen in a horrible place of burning and torments. People who have this image of God being a loving Grandfather who will never punish sin have a horribly wrong and un-Biblical image of Him. Therefore a balance is needed - sin should be taken very serious but also the understanding that God is forgiving through the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

OU

 

[knownbeforetime]

Another thread on how pre-tribbers are wimps and cowards. Nothing about their arguments from scripture and the like... Yes, very mature...

My hope is in Jesus Christ. If we suffer tribulation (not the Tribulation), He will give us perseverence. However, scripture is clear that we will not suffer the Tribulation.

How about we take a look at my signature. It pretty much explains my worldview. In my worldview, the beginning is connected to the end and the grace of God is shown throughout. Adam and Eve were shown grace by recieving clothes of animal skins and allowing the human race to continue. On down the line, Abraham, Moses, David were shown the grace of God. Jesus came to be an ultimate showing of grace by dying in our place for our sin. Why should it be any different in the end times? Ask yourself, which view would fit more with a gracious, loving God? Would a gracious and loving God make his children suffer his wrath or let his children escape it (much like Lot escaping Sodom)? God always rescues His children before sending judgment on sinners.

 

[OttawaUk]

Another thread on how pre-tribbers are wimps and cowards. Nothing about their arguments from scripture and the like... Yes, very mature...

My hope is in Jesus Christ. If we suffer tribulation (not the Tribulation), He will give us perseverence. However, scripture is clear that we will not suffer the Tribulation.

How about we take a look at my signature. It pretty much explains my worldview. In my worldview, the beginning is connected to the end and the grace of God is shown throughout. Adam and Eve were shown grace by recieving clothes of animal skins and allowing the human race to continue. On down the line, Abraham, Moses, David were shown the grace of God. Jesus came to be an ultimate showing of grace by dying in our place for our sin. Why should it be any different in the end times? Ask yourself, which view would fit more with a gracious, loving God? Would a gracious and loving God make his children suffer his wrath or let his children escape it (much like Lot escaping Sodom)? God always rescues His children before sending judgment on sinners.

A couple points to consider.

1) Look at most of Jesus' Apostles - they all died horrible deaths and were martyrs. Does that mean God is any less gracious or loving? Certainly not. There was a reason they died that way.

2) Look at the millions of others have been martyred in Christs name over the past 2000 years. Did they get a free ride out? Does this mean God is any less gracious or loving? Certainly not.

3) Look at the word Tribulation. Does tribulation apply for unbelievers? Tribulation is what believers go through in times of testing. Job was tested. Jonah was tested. David was tested. Abraham was tested. Moses was tested. All of God's people go through testing. Does it mean God is any less loving? Certainly not.

God's ways are not our ways.

I am a firm believer that we will be here through the Trib, but it certainly doesn't make God any less loving to me.

Thy Will be done, LORD.

OU

 

[Harlan Norris]

I've had people tell me that "IF" they are wrong on the pre tribulational timing of Jesus' appearance, and He did not keep them out of the great tribulation, then they would no longer believe.

Think on these three things...

#1. Revelation 3:9 is a promise to the church at Philadelphia, nearly 2000 years ago, and is based on certain conditions. Do you personally know what "keeping the word of His patience" is?
It is not what some think. Read Mal.4:1-2; 2 Pet.2:9; Matt.24:13; Rom. 5:3; James 5:7; Heb.10:36-37; Rev. 1:9; 13:10; 14:12 to find out.

#2. Many (especially pre tribbers) are taught to believe that we won't be here to go through the tribulation when it hits. Is that so important???
What's really important is not to be concerned so much with our having or not having to go through some kind of trial and persecution for our faith in Christ (because we will), but that we should be concerned with the Timing (Eschatology) of His Second Coming. WHY? "SO THAT WE KNOW THE TRUTH AND ARE NOT DECEIVED by false teachings."
In other words, we should be concerned only with what God's word is telling us, without any bias and without us putting our two cents into it to make it mean something else.

#3. One of the clearest scriptures I know on the second coming of Christ is 2 Corinthians 2:1-3.
In it Paul speaks of the coming of the Lord "AND" of our being gathered together unto Him in One verse, as it is being held and presented as One, Single Event.

[1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.]

In 2 Thessalonians 2 Paul is saying that, "That Day (when the Lord comes and we are gathered unto Him) will not occur until AFTER the falling away come first, and the man of sin is revealed".

Now if this is true (and it is) then how do you propose that we get certain believers to forget about their selfish need of escaping the great tribulation, and instead just focus on the word of God and what it says... especially Matthew 24 concerning the end times, and all come to the knowledge of the truth as one?

Biff

I was all set to teach pre trib. when the Lord intervened and opened my understanding of 2 Cor.2:1-3, to study without bias, comparing "His" word with "His" word, and not wirh "mans" teachings.
Shortly after, the walls came tumbling down!

I agree,No pre trib rapture.This is one of if not the most troubling twists of scripture comming from the pulpit today.I know the trial to come will cause a great falling away.People will grasp onto anything when it begins and we are all still here.Read the scripture as it's written.It's quite clear.

 

[knownbeforetime]

A couple points to consider.

1) Look at most of Jesus' Apostles - they all died horrible deaths and were martyrs. Does that mean God is any less gracious or loving? Certainly not. There was a reason they died that way.

2) Look at the millions of others have been martyred in Christs name over the past 2000 years. Did they get a free ride out? Does this mean God is any less gracious or loving? Certainly not.

3) Look at the word Tribulation. Does tribulation apply for unbelievers? Tribulation is what believers go through in times of testing. Job was tested. Jonah was tested. David was tested. Abraham was tested. Moses was tested. All of God's people go through testing. Does it mean God is any less loving? Certainly not.

God's ways are not our ways.

I am a firm believer that we will be here through the Trib, but it certainly doesn't make God any less loving to me.

Thy Will be done, LORD.

OU

Read Revelation. God is going to judge the "inhabitants of the Earth". Is that us? No. What would make God less loving in this scenario would be to leave us here while He did it. It would be like spanking all your kids for something only one of them did. (Or maybe it would be more like spanking all six kids when only five of them behaved badly.) That's an abusive parent. I do not serve an abusive God.

Who is abusive? Satan. (More like an abusive older sibling.) He has been persecuting us for thousands of years. That's who to blame for that. Satan is to blame for the grisly deaths of the martyrs. Blame the Trib on God and blame only yourself if you find yourself in it.

 

[Zadok7000]

As you can clearly see by the words of our Saviour, God has prepared the lake of fire for Satan and his angels.

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS." (Matthew 25:41)

People are going to end up in the eternal lake of fire, along with Satan and his angels. Its in God's Word all over the place.

If anyone is expecting a literal lake of fire with sinners cooking like pieces of bacon for all eternity, you've got another thing coming:

Deut. 4:24
For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

Deut. 9:3
Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.

Psalm 50:3
Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 68:2
As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

2Thes. 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Heb. 12:29
For our God is a consuming fire.

Rev. 20:9
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


The 2nd death is just that - death.
1st death = death of the flesh body
2nd death = death of the soul

Matt. 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

HE is the Life. Reject HIM, and death is the only alternative.