Is your belief conditional?

[solarwave]

What I mean is would you still believe God exists if it were proven there was no eternal reward?

Well an eternal reward isn't evidence for God (as we don't know if there is one) so whatever currently convinces me of God would continue to do so.

 

[lesliedellow]

If it were proven that there is no eternal life and no heaven:
1) would you still believe that Jesus died for the sins of others?
2) would you still believe that there is a fully omniscient & omnipotent God?
3) would you still maintain your personal relationship with God?
4) Would you still continue to read the Bible and/or go to church?

From whence do you get the idea that you can remove the fondations from a building, and still leave the building standing, so that you can ask questions like, "Would you still use it as your place of work?"

No more can you hack pieces out of a belief system, and still ask questions about what was left - as if what was left still constituted a meaningful and self consistent whole.

 

[zaksmummy]

How is it an atheist can live his life with good morals without needing God's guidance, but a Christian can't?

Because there is more to Christianity that having good morals.

The basis of our faith is this - we are trapped by sin our whole lives (see adam and eve in the garden of eden) God wants to reestablish that relationship but because he is so holy we cannot get near to him. So the only way to be free of this sin is to believe that God in human flesh (Jesus) came to earth to be our substitute sacrifice (because the wages of sin is death).

When we believe God forgives us our sin - we are obedient to him, thus his statement "Be Holy for I am Holy" and therefore our morals are good.

 

[Cieza]

I would not believe. I won't follow a God who promises all those things who was/is proven to be a liar. I hate liars.

Now same questions reworded for you:
If it were proven that there IS eternal life and IS a heaven:
1) would you still believe that Jesus did not die for the sins of others?

Yes. I would not fabricate or feign a belief hoping that somehow God would not recognize my insincerity.

2) would you still believe that there isn't is a fully omniscient & omnipotent God?

Yes. I would still need to have a first hand observation of omniscience & omnipotence before I would believe either are real.

3) would you still ensure you had no personal relationship with God?

N/A. I'm not the one who ensures I have no personal relationship with God. That is something God decided. Why he doesn't want a personal relationship with me is something I don't know.

4) Would you still refuse to read the Bible and/or go to church?

Probably. I have better and more interesting things to do with my time than read the Bible or go to church.

 

[Cieza]

From whence do you get the idea that you can remove the fondations from a building, and still leave the building standing, so that you can ask questions like, "Would you still use it as your place of work?"

No more can you hack pieces out of a belief system, and still ask questions about what was left - as if what was left still constituted a meaningful and self consistent whole.

I'm not trying to remove any "foundations". I'm merely trying to get an understanding if your beliefs are conditional upon you being granted eternal life in heaven. They either are or they aren't conditional. There is no third choice.

 

[lesliedellow]

I'm not trying to remove any "foundations". I'm merely trying to get an understanding if your beliefs are conditional upon you being granted eternal life in heaven. They either are or they aren't conditional. There is no third choice.

If there was no eternal life the idea of Christ dying for our sins would make no sense. Salvation is precisely salvation from death.

 

[Cieza]

If there was no eternal life the idea of Christ dying for our sins would make no sense. Salvation is precisely salvation from death.

Does that mean your beliefs are conditional upon you being granted admission into heaven? It's either YES or NO

 

[CryptoLutheran]

.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

If it were proven that there is no eternal life and no heaven:
1) would you still believe that Jesus died for the sins of others?
2) would you still believe that there is a fully omniscient & omnipotent God?
3) would you still maintain your personal relationship with God?
4) Would you still continue to read the Bible and/or go to church?

St. Paul was pretty clear:

If there is no resurrection of the dead (i.e. no eternal life) then Christ is not risen. If Christ is not risen then the entirety of the Christian faith is vain and pointless--the entire Christian message is empty and our religion is worthless.

In other words, if there is no resurrection of the dead then there is no Christianity. In which case I would be in the market for another belief system/philosophy/way of life (et al).

As far as heaven is concerned, I don't believe in a place called "heaven" anyway. Rather "heaven" euphemistically refers to God's otherly and ineffable presence. Thus the existence of a place called "heaven" is irrelevant for my faith.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Cieza]

St. Paul was pretty clear:

If there is no resurrection of the dead (i.e. no eternal life) then Christ is not risen. If Christ is not risen then the entirety of the Christian faith is vain and pointless--the entire Christian message is empty and our religion is worthless.

In other words, if there is no resurrection of the dead then there is no Christianity. In which case I would be in the market for another belief system/philosophy/way of life (et al).

As far as heaven is concerned, I don't believe in a place called "heaven" anyway. Rather "heaven" euphemistically refers to God's otherly and ineffable presence. Thus the existence of a place called "heaven" is irrelevant for my faith.

-CryptoLutheran

I gather that means your answer to each of my four questions is "NO". Am I correct?

If it were proven that there is no eternal life and no heaven:
1) would you still believe that Jesus died for the sins of others?
2) would you still believe that there is a fully omniscient & omnipotent God?
3) would you still maintain your personal relationship with God?
4) Would you still continue to read the Bible and/or go to church?

 

[drich0150]

If it were proven that there is no eternal life and no heaven:
1) would you still believe that Jesus died for the sins of others?
2) would you still believe that there is a fully omniscient & omnipotent God?
3) would you still maintain your personal relationship with God?
4) Would you still continue to read the Bible and/or go to church?

Yes to all

Love has nothing to do with what is in it for you.

 

[LOCO]

If it were proven that there is no eternal life and no heaven:
1) would you still believe that Jesus died for the sins of others?
2) would you still believe that there is a fully omniscient & omnipotent God?
3) would you still maintain your personal relationship with God?
4) Would you still continue to read the Bible and/or go to church?

1. Yes, because we know he existed, we know he died for our sins. The bold phrase above does not exclude other possibilities e.g. there may be no heaven but there may be another Garden of Eden.

2. Yes, because the bold phrase above does not exclude the possibility of a fully omniscient and omnipotent God. It only excludes eternal life and Heaven.

3. Yes, see answer 2

4. Yes, because the bold phrase does not exclude God, Jesus or Sacred Scripture. It does not exclude a tangible human experience with Christ or Scripture.

Blessings

 

[Cieza]

1. Yes, because we know he existed, we know he died for our sins. The bold phrase above does not exclude other possibilities e.g. there may be no heaven but there may be another Garden of Eden.

2. Yes, because the bold phrase above does not exclude the possibility of a fully omniscient and omnipotent God. It only excludes eternal life and Heaven.

3. Yes, see answer 2

4. Yes, because the bold phrase does not exclude God, Jesus or Sacred Scripture. It does not exclude a tangible human experience with Christ or Scripture.

Blessings

Very well done. Many others in here seem incapable of answering simple questions, but you've shown how to properly answer a question.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

I gather that means your answer to each of my four questions is "NO". Am I correct?

If it were proven that there is no eternal life and no heaven:
1) would you still believe that Jesus died for the sins of others?
2) would you still believe that there is a fully omniscient & omnipotent God?
3) would you still maintain your personal relationship with God?
4) Would you still continue to read the Bible and/or go to church?

For the sake of clarity I'll address each of the four questions directly.

1) If there is no resurrection then Jesus' death was simply a martyr's death. Jesus died a martyr of Roman oppression and therefore Christian talk about salvation, atonement, and the like is moot. If the dead do not rise, Jesus did not rise, that means Jesus is still dead and the Christian message of Death's defeat is false and that sin, death and hell have not been overcome by Jesus. So no, if there is no resurrection of the dead then I would not believe Jesus died for the sins of the world since that would be utterly false.

2) I would still be theistic, or at least deistic probably; it would most likely have to be a radically re-understood or redefined theism if any kind of theism though. Which is why a deistic position may be the most likely course of action if it were no resurrection of the dead and that the Christian (and indeed the entire Abrahamic religious tradition) message were falsified.

3) As a Christian I believe that God has revealed Himself historically through the Prophets and life of Israel and that culminated in His personal self-revelation in, through and as Jesus Christ. Without the resurrection the Jesus Story as confessed by Christians is false; and without resurrection both Judaism and Islam become unacceptable choices (though Judaism would be a more acceptable choice since it places less emphasis on the Olam Ha'ba than either Christianity or Islam do). In other words, the very notion of God's personal revelation as received within the broad Abrahamic tradition is generally untenable and thus I would likely not talk about a "personal relationship with God" unless I redefined such a concept to conform to a non-Abrahamic theism/deism.

4) What good is the Christian Bible if the Christian message of Christ is false? What good is the Church if the Church is just some social club? I'd probably still read some parts of the Bible if only for the aesthetic of some of the Psalms, but no, I wouldn't go to church since the entire foundation of the Church is false, and thus the fellowship of the Faithful is moot, the Sacraments powerless, the preaching of the Word just noise.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Cieza]

For the sake of clarity I'll address each of the four questions directly.

1) If there is no resurrection then Jesus' death was simply a martyr's death. Jesus died a martyr of Roman oppression and therefore Christian talk about salvation, atonement, and the like is moot. If the dead do not rise, Jesus did not rise, that means Jesus is still dead and the Christian message of Death's defeat is false and that sin, death and hell have not been overcome by Jesus. So no, if there is no resurrection of the dead then I would not believe Jesus died for the sins of the world since that would be utterly false.

2) I would still be theistic, or at least deistic probably; it would most likely have to be a radically re-understood or redefined theism if any kind of theism though. Which is why a deistic position may be the most likely course of action if it were no resurrection of the dead and that the Christian (and indeed the entire Abrahamic religious tradition) message were falsified.

3) As a Christian I believe that God has revealed Himself historically through the Prophets and life of Israel and that culminated in His personal self-revelation in, through and as Jesus Christ. Without the resurrection the Jesus Story as confessed by Christians is false; and without resurrection both Judaism and Islam become unacceptable choices (though Judaism would be a more acceptable choice since it places less emphasis on the Olam Ha'ba than either Christianity or Islam do). In other words, the very notion of God's personal revelation as received within the broad Abrahamic tradition is generally untenable and thus I would likely not talk about a "personal relationship with God" unless I redefined such a concept to conform to a non-Abrahamic theism/deism.

4) What good is the Christian Bible if the Christian message of Christ is false? What good is the Church if the Church is just some social club? I'd probably still read some parts of the Bible if only for the aesthetic of some of the Psalms, but no, I wouldn't go to church since the entire foundation of the Church is false, and thus the fellowship of the Faithful is moot, the Sacraments powerless, the preaching of the Word just noise.

-CryptoLutheran

Very well done. Thank you very much.

 

[lesliedellow]

Does that mean your beliefs are conditional upon you being granted admission into heaven? It's either YES or NO

The question doesn't even make sense - for the reason I gave.

 

[Cieza]

The question doesn't even make sense - for the reason I gave.

Leslie - we need to back peddle. Here are the questions again:

If it were proven that there is no eternal life and no heaven:
1) would you still believe that Jesus died for the sins of others?
2) would you still believe that there is a fully omniscient & omnipotent God?
3) would you still maintain your personal relationship with God?
4) Would you still continue to read the Bible and/or go to church?

Both LOCO and CryptoLutheran were able to answer the question just fine. So I know you can too.

 

[Julian of York]

Dear Cieza,
I just realized I may not have answered your question in my quest to get to the real issue. So here goes:

Question 1: Would I still believe that Christ died for the sins of others, if it were proved that heaven and eternal life do not exist?
Answer: Yes
Reason: I think you have brought up a vital point here. Your wording is "...believe that Christ died for the sins of others." By others, you infer that when Christ died He was dying for His sins.
1) Christ did not sin because He is the Son of God. "But unto the Son He saith, thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.Thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity (sin);therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.And, thou, O Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands." Hebrews 1:8-10
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of mankind." John 1:1-4
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:14
"Seeing then we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not a high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Hebrews 4:14-15
See, Cieza? The Bible claims that Jesus is the Son of God, that Jesus is the Creator, and that Jesus was tempted in all ways we are, yet never yielded. That brings up a reason for me to believe that His Word is true.
Remember when He was arrested by the Jewish leaders? They tried Him, sent Him before the Romans, and then beg and pouted until Pontius Pilate gave in and crucified Jesus. They beat Him, and spit on Him, tore out His beard, and mocked Him. And with that crown of thorns on His head, they laid Him on a cross of wood, nailed Him to it, and stood it up, and with a "Thunk!" it fell into the hole dug for it, ripping and tearing at the Lord. But the most interesting thing that happened, Cieza, is that a few hours later, after all this abuse and fiendish torture, Jesus DIED! We now humbly bring in the governing law for this matter: "For the wages of sin is death..." Romans 6:23. But the Bible says, as I have quoted a few instances of, that Jesus never sinned in word, thought or deed. So when He looked up to Heaven and said "It is finished. Father, into Thy hands I commend my Spirit." And died, He was not dying for His sins, because He didn't have any to die for!!! He was dying, loaded down with the sins of all those people that would, through history, repent and believe in the Christ unto salvation. Then He spent three days in a tomb. On the third day, Jesus rose up from the dead (He was truly dead) and revealed Himself to His disciples. His rising from the dead proves that He did die for our sins, Because if He was dying for His sins, He could NOT have come back to life ("The wages of sin is death") .But He did come back to life, after having destroyed and abolished His people's sins, so death could not hold Him, legally. You see, God did all this legally and aboveboard so that an honest sceptic like yourself could be shown the reasonableness of God's entire plan for the salvation of those that repent and believe.

Sorry if I overloaded you answering your FIRST question...if interested, I will try to be briefer in the future.

Julian of York.
"For thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory, and honor ,and power; for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." Revelation 4:11

PS He also said,"I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go, I will come again and receive you unto myself, that where I am ,there ye may be also."
And on that promise, Cieza, I rest my eternal well being. My faith is not CONDITIONAL...It is COVENENTIAL. I am relying on my Covenant relationship with God. He made the promise, and I believe it.

 

[Julian of York]

And, by the way, The Way (Jesus) said,"I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you unto myself, that where I am ye may be also."
You see, my eternal well being is entrusted to God by faith in His promises. My faith is not CONDITIONAL...It is COVENENTIAL. My only reliance is in a personal covenant between my God and myself. All due to His free grace.

JoY

 

[Julian of York]

2) Would I be convinced that there is a fully omniscient and omnipotent God?
I think this is an interesting question. May I ask you one in return, in a rhetorical fashion, to help you understand the answer?
If you could design a god, what would he/she be like?
The root of the problem between mankind and God is that man does NOT like God the way He is. They would have Him different. Different from the way the Bible presents Him, anyway.
Over two hundred years ago, a brilliant man said that man hates God because of :
A.His holiness. By being absolutely holy, requiring right and righteousness, God is abhorrent to man. This is the First Thing man would fix. Let's have a God that is fallible, that does not have a perfect standard of behavior, that is a big "grandfather" in the sky. In reality, He holds you accountable for YOUR actions, according to that perfect standard.
B. His omniscience. God knows everything. This is the Second Thing man would change. It's no fun having Diety that knows ALL about what you have done and what you are going to do. And when you add in the fact that this God is going to hold YOU responsible for your wicked,sinful acts, because He knows them ALL, that really makes man dispise Him. Remember Jesus? One of the things that God's Son did that really upset EVERYBODY was His ability to know EVERYTHING people were thinking. When people were plotting against Him, He said,"Why do ye reason so in your hearts?" They DESPISED Jesus and would have crucified Him sooner if they could, because they hated His omniscience.
C. His omnipotence. This same God that is absolutely holy, and knows everything about YOU , is also able to do anything He wants. So if He wants to punish you, He is all-powerful, and so ,He will punish you. Because He is all-powerful, He can create an eternally burning cell from which there is no escape, where YOU will be held eternally. God is soverreign: He can do what He wants. And man hates Him for it.
D. God is also immutable. That is, He never changes. This really causes man to hate Him.
So what the Bible reveals about God is that He is holy, and holds EVERYONE up to His standard ("For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23).He knows EVERYTHING, and will bring it all back to light at the Judgement, He is all powerful and can do as He likes.
And He never changes. So this God is hated for just the attributes YOU have asked about.
Cieza, do YOU hate God because of these attributes?


JoY
B.