Neochristian
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I'm gonna have to agree that Ba'al and YHWH are not the same thing.
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Really? Well then, if Baal was actually Yahweh, which is blasphemy by the way, then the scriptures wouldn't contain a reference to 8747 false gods that include Baal. Being Baal would be Yahweh the scriptures, God's breath, would not call Yahweh as Baal false. Baal, a Canaanite and Phoenician god of fertility and rainJudges 2:10-13 Baal, meaning “lord”, was pictured standing on a bull, a popular symbol of fertility and strength. Baal was associated with Asherah and Ashtoreth, goddesses of fertility.
Nor would God destroy those who worshiped him by that other name, Baal. Deuteronomy 4:3.
Nor would the worshipers of Baal-Peor have incurred the wrath of God for eating sacrifices of the dead as described in Psalm 106, if what they were doing was done in worship of Yahweh aka Baal-Peor.
No, it does not. It cannot.
There's a false teaching that's circulating about now with regard to allah being the same god as that of the Christians and Jews. Being that Arabs pre Islam used the arabic word allah to rightly identify god, that does not mean the god of the Koran is the same God as of the Bible.
This false teaching goes something like this. Allah, which is a generic term , Arabic for "god", which is true, is the same God as in Judaism and Christianity. The differences between the camps of faithful is the beliefs that follow the god.
It's almost like unto a joke at first but it stops being funny when one realizes such false teachers are very serious. And this is why it isn't funny.
All faith arrives from trust and belief in the doctrine one is exposed to and that resonates as truth for that individual.
In the time-line of faiths in this particular concern, Judaism came first, Christianity followed as the fulfillment of the law and the prophecies in Judaism as pertained to Messiah, and then came Islam.
Belief is arrived at through the reading of the scriptures, the teachings, that pertain to a particular religion.
When the Bible is said to be God breathed and is composed of scriptures from the Pentateuch and the New Testament, the new covenant that is born from the old, and the Koran contradicts what God breathed to life in the scriptures pertaining to Judaism and Christianity, then the god of the Koran cannot be the God of Judaism and Christianity.
Because the god of islam says in his 'breathed' text that he did not beget a son. The Koran that the muslims god dictated to a thief, a murderer, a pedophile, and a rapist, Muhammad, denies the crucifixion, denies the resurrection, denies Yeshua, called Isa in the Koran, was his son who redeemed the world from sin. The god of the Koran states that all human life originated not from Adam and Eve but from a blood clot.
This is why the absurd argument that false teachers promote, and they do have success when they are speaking to people who've never read the Torah, the Talmud, The Bible or the Koran, is so glaringly obviously a lie!
Because if the god of islam is that same god of the Jews and the Christians, he not only lied in 7 A.D. when dictating through Gabriel to that illiterate immoral merchant Muhammad, but he renounced everything he preordained to happen in matters of Hebrew prophecy and Christ fulfillment. And this means that no Christian is truly saved! Because the Koran, being that is the same god as breathed the Bible to life, denies everything Christians know Christ to be.
Then your friend is not muslim.Dude, I shared an article with you last night about how the Pope embraced Islam. Embracing Islam is not equal to practicing Islam. Also, I have a Muslim friend who says that her faith claims that Jesus Christ is the only means of salvation and the removal of sin.
I am still waiting for the counter-argument against my 'weak' argument.
That depends who you talk to. The way i see it is Islam worships the same God as Christianity and as the Jews. Of course there are differences to how we understand and approach God.
Paul cites the "unknown God" to the Athenians as the true God and he offers to revel to them how this unknown God can be knowable. This isn't relativism making every worshipable thing as the true God just gone about the wrong way but it is keeping the redeemable values and instead of introducing something new Paul shows how God can be revealed with what they already know showing them God was always there.
With islam it is even closer. The God of islam is rooted in the God of Abraham and everyone knows this. They have the same source but they diverge. But just because they see things differently doesn't make the source different. God still stays the same even if he is worshiped differently and understood differently.
We have all heard of the elephant analogy where each man describes the elephant differently. But what about the man who can only describe the elephant from a distance and cannot experience the elephant with their senses. They never experience the elephant but know it is real. They may get a lot of the details wrong but this doesn't make the elephant they are describing as wrong it only makes the details wrong.
This doesn't make islam right but It also doesn't make God false. muslim's worship an unknowable God and because of that will never know redemption through islam but that God is the same God that we worship. we just worship him in spirit and in turth.
And that is everything isn't it? When the message of salvation was given by God through his son Jesus Christ who is the only way to salvation and to come to the Father.That depends who you talk to. The way i see it is Islam worships the same God as Christianity and as the Jews. Of course there are differences to how we understand and approach God. ...
I don't want to nitpick but according to the rules you aren't allowed to post in this forum area as your faith choice isn't considered "Christian"How about an alternative explanation instead: what Christ means when He says, "The Father and I are one," is that YHWH and He are one. That would account for the passage without making YHWH the trinity.
http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/jesus-christ-is-yahwehHow about an alternative explanation instead: what Christ means when He says, "The Father and I are one," is that YHWH and He are one. That would account for the passage without making YHWH the trinity.
We have all heard of the elephant analogy where each man describes the elephant differently. But what about the man who can only describe the elephant from a distance and cannot experience the elephant with their senses. They never experience the elephant but know it is real. They may get a lot of the details wrong but this doesn't make the elephant they are describing as wrong it only makes the details wrong..
Who here is doing that?Don't listen to anyone who confuses the Islamic community with the Arabic community. Such confusions are disgusting.
That depends who you talk to. The way i see it is Islam worships the same God as Christianity and as the Jews. Of course there are differences to how we understand and approach God.
Paul cites the "unknown God" to the Athenians as the true God and he offers to revel to them how this unknown God can be knowable. This isn't relativism making every worshipable thing as the true God just gone about the wrong way but it is keeping the redeemable values and instead of introducing something new Paul shows how God can be revealed with what they already know showing them God was always there.
With islam it is even closer. The God of islam is rooted in the God of Abraham and everyone knows this. They have the same source but they diverge. But just because they see things differently doesn't make the source different. God still stays the same even if he is worshiped differently and understood differently.
We have all heard of the elephant analogy where each man describes the elephant differently. But what about the man who can only describe the elephant from a distance and cannot experience the elephant with their senses. They never experience the elephant but know it is real. They may get a lot of the details wrong but this doesn't make the elephant they are describing as wrong it only makes the details wrong.
This doesn't make islam right but It also doesn't make God false. muslim's worship an unknowable God and because of that will never know redemption through islam but that God is the same God that we worship. we just worship him in spirit and in turth.
None of the blind men has his specific detail wrong. Each detail is accurate, albeit not a complete comprehension. The man who does not experience the elephant at all does not know whether the elephant really exists at all, and if his details do not correspond with any detail of any of the blind men who actually touched the elephant, then that man with no experience is simply wrong.
The Islam comprehension of God is not merely incomplete, it's specifically wrong. The description of Allah in Islam is not the description of the God worshipped by Christians, any more than the "King George III" is the same person as "King George VII," despite the fact that both are known by the title "King George."
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
10and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
The problem is that monotheism in the OT is actually quite a developing process. The textual data makes it quite obvious that the early Israelites were polytheistic and that two deities in the OT (El Elyon and Yahweh) are in the process of being conflated. This isn't altogether neat and tidy, some stories like the Flood narrative are rather very messy.
Anyway, I wouldn't identify Allah with Yahweh, I would identify Allah with El Elyon.
Isaiah 63:9-12
In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
10But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
11Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where ishe that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?
12That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?
That's the particular trajectory which happened with emergence of Christianity, and not just Christianity but the entire binitarian/two-powers-in-heaven Jewish theological movement (Philo of Alexandria). It took hold of the binaries extant in the text (Yahweh and El Elyon) as well as the monotheistic tendency of the text and moved within the binitarian model. So Jesus became understood as Yahweh/the Angel of the Lord, etc.Old testament scripture reveals the trinity of the one infinite God Yahweh and not a pantheon of gods as you have mistakenly suggested.
That's the particular trajectory which happened with emergence of Christianity, and not just Christianity but the entire binitarian/two-powers-in-heaven Jewish theological movement (Philo of Alexandria). It took hold of the binaries extant in the text (Yahweh and El Elyon) as well as the monotheistic tendency of the text and moved within the binitarian model. So Jesus became understood as Yahweh/the Angel of the Lord, etc.
I guess one could see it that way. I'm just describing the process in terms of the history of religions.And the Spirit of truth revealed this to his church, so that there would be no mistake of the one and true God that we worship as Christians today.
Hebrews 8:11
No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
Jeremiah 31:34
No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
It was one trajectory. Other trajectories were the emergence of Rabbinic Judaism and Islam. The text holds many possibilities.That is how it happened friend, otherwise the Old Testament prophets would have been either decieved or decievers.
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