Is water baptism necessary for salvation?

[apenman]

Not what I asked ya.

Yes, the law of Christ is the only command that must be fulfilled.

Don’t answer my question with a question.

I already had provided you with scripture regarding the law of Moses and why it has nothing to do with salvation. Now, could you please answer my question, how were gentiles saved before the sacrifice of Christ??

How do you become a sheep? How do you enter into the Church?

If you would answer my question above about the gentiles, the question here is what I'm working towards.

 

[nebuchadnezzar]

​

Originally Posted by: nebuchadnezzar
Not what I asked ya.

Yes, the law of Christ is the only command that must be fulfilled.

So according to you, the law of Christ is to just love one another. And being that we must only follow the law of Christ this means that we are not to love God because we have to only love one another. It also means that we are not to partake in the Lord’s supper because we are to only follow the command of loving one another. It also means that we are not to study the bible because all we have to do is love one another. It also means that we don’t have to repent because all we have to do is love one another. It also, means that we don’t have to share the gospel because all we have to do is love one another……





Do ya get my point? Loving one another is not the only thing that we are commanded to do.

​

I already had provided you with scripture regarding the law of Moses and why it has nothing to do with salvation. Now, could you please answer my question, how were gentiles saved before the sacrifice of Christ??

Gentiles where not saved. If they did not follow the Law of Moses they where not considered as righteous for salvation is from the Jews.



John 4:22
You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.

 

[Beoga]

Sorry, no. The HS was not the baptism that was being spoken about here. It was a literal one for the same reasons as my previous quote. DO ya want me to try and explain it differently or do ya get it.

Don't try and explain it again. I believe that you tried to show me that the context shows that it is talking about water baptism, so I don't want you to go on repeating yourself. I am going to drop out of this debate with you because I really have nothing else to say because I havn't studied and researched this topic much. So yeah, hopefully I will find the time to research this.

 

[apenman]

So according to you, the law of Christ is to just love one another. And being that we must only follow the law of Christ this means that we are not to love God because we have to only love one another. It also means that we are not to partake in the Lord’s supper because we are to only follow the command of loving one another. It also means that we are not to study the bible because all we have to do is love one another. It also means that we don’t have to repent because all we have to do is love one another. It also, means that we don’t have to share the gospel because all we have to do is love one another……

What is the proof that we love God????? It isn't how religious we are. It isn't in how much we read the Bible or how much we witness. There is only one proof, and here it is:

Matthew 25:40, "The King will reply, `I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'" (NIV)

So, the proof is, "whenever you have done it to the least of one of these, you did for me". This is the proof of how much we love God.

Gentiles where not saved. If they did not follow the Law of Moses they where not considered as righteous for salvation is from the Jews.

John 4:22
You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.

Interesting answer, but what about Rahab, who was both a Gentile and a prostitute when the Jews took Jericho?????? She actually makes the faith chapter in the book of Hebrews, and here is what James has to say:

James 2:20-26, "You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." (NIV)

So, we see that Rahab the Gentile was righteous, she believed God, acted on that belief, which made it faith, and it was counted to her as righteousness, in exactly the same way as Abraham. Now, we know that God does not show favoritism, and that God is impartial, so if Rahab could be saved in this way then any Gentile could also be saved in this way.

So, "salvation is from the Jews" not because of the law of Moses, but because Christ was Jewish, and Gentiles are not excluded from this salvation, even before the sacrifice of Christ. Of this, the faith of Rahab is conclusive, just as the thief on the cross is conclusive.

Also, to repent simply means to "change ones mind" or to turn to God, and anyone who believes God and has faith, has turned to God. It required faith to fulfill the law of Christ, so anyone who fulfills that law has turned to God, but this does not require religion, it only requires faith.

 

[nebuchadnezzar]

Sorry, no. The HS was not the baptism that was being spoken about here. It was a literal one for the same reasons as my previous quote. DO ya want me to try and explain it differently or do ya get it.
​

​

Don't try and explain it again. I believe that you tried to show me that the context shows that it is talking about water baptism, so I don't want you to go on repeating yourself. I am going to drop out of this debate with you because I really have nothing else to say because I havn't studied and researched this topic much. So yeah, hopefully I will find the time to research this.

Ok well good luck. If ya want there is a great web site for all kinds of stuff. www.bible.ca. It does cover some pretty controversial stuff but it is very good.

Originally Posted by: nebuchadnezzar




So according to you, the law of Christ is to just love one another. And being that we must only follow the law of Christ this means that we are not to love God because we have to only love one another. It also means that we are not to partake in the Lord’s supper because we are to only follow the command of loving one another. It also means that we are not to study the bible because all we have to do is love one another. It also means that we don’t have to repent because all we have to do is love one another. It also, means that we don’t have to share the gospel because all we have to do is love one another……

What is the proof that we love God????? It isn't how religious we are. It isn't in how much we read the Bible or how much we witness. There is only one proof, and here it is:
​

Matthew 25:40, "The King will reply, `I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'" (NIV)

So, the proof is, "whenever you have done it to the least of one of these, you did for me". This is the proof of how much we love God.

THat is just one thing that we have to do.

​

Originally Posted by: nebuchadnezzar

Gentiles where not saved. If they did not follow the Law of Moses they where not considered as righteous for salvation is from the Jews.



John 4:22
You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
​

​

Interesting answer, but what about Rahab, who was both a Gentile and a prostitute when the Jews took Jericho?????? She actually makes the faith chapter in the book of Hebrews, and here is what James has to say:

James 2:20-26, "You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." (NIV)



So, we see that Rahab the Gentile was righteous, she believed God, acted on that belief, which made it faith, and it was counted to her as righteousness, in exactly the same way as Abraham. Now, we know that God does not show favoritism, and that God is impartial, so if Rahab could be saved in this way then any Gentile could also be saved in this way.

Where does it say she was saved. It says she was rightouss but not saved.

So, "salvation is from the Jews" not because of the law of Moses, but because Christ was Jewish, and Gentiles are not excluded from this salvation, even before the sacrifice of Christ. Of this, the faith of Rahab is conclusive, just as the thief on the cross is conclusive.

Also, to repent simply means to "change ones mind" or to turn to God, and anyone who believes God and has faith, has turned to God. It required faith to fulfill the law of Christ, so anyone who fulfills that law has turned to God, but this does not require religion, it only requires faith.

To repent does mean to turn to God but belief anf repentance are not the same thing. They can even be unrelated. You can have one without the other.







Don’t mean to be abrupt but this is all very much of the point. Let us look at the vs that talk about baptism.





I will start with a few questions.





How do you get remission of sins?



How are your sins washed away?

 

[apenman]

THat is just one thing that we have to do.

No, it isn't just one thing, it is "the" thing.

​

Where does it say she was saved. It says she was rightouss but not saved.

When the Bible says someone is righteous, it means they are saved. Look at this:

Matthew 25:46, "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (NIV)

So, the righteous go to eternal life. Do ya get my point??

To repent does mean to turn to God but belief anf repentance are not the same thing. They can even be unrelated. You can have one without the other.

How do you get remission of sins?



How are your sins washed away?

It is the sacrifice of Christ that washes away sins, and that sacrifice applies to those who are righteous, like Rahab. And, again as Paul states, "from first to last, the righteous shall live by faith". So, faith is the issue, not beliefs.

 

[nebuchadnezzar]

Quote:









Originally Posted by: nebuchadnezzar

​

​

THat is just one thing that we have to do.











​

No, it isn't just one thing, it is "the" thing.

​

So all I have to do is love my neighbour and I’m saved?

Quote:









Originally Posted by: nebuchadnezzar

​

​

Where does it say she was saved. It says she was rightouss but not saved.











​

When the Bible says someone is righteous, it means they are saved. Look at this:

Matthew 25:46, "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (NIV)

So, the righteous go to eternal life. Do ya get my point??

Ok I see what ya mean. If you look at Romans 6:16 it says that obedience leads to righteousness. This means that to be saved we need to be obedient and then we become righteous. If we neglect the command to be baptised and to baptise for the remission of sins then we are not saved.



Romans 6:16
Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

Quote:









Originally Posted by: nebuchadnezzar

​

​

To repent does mean to turn to God but belief anf repentance are not the same thing. They can even be unrelated. You can have one without the other.


How do you get remission of sins?



How are your sins washed away?











​

It is the sacrifice of Christ that washes away sins, and that sacrifice applies to those who are righteous, like Rahab. And, again as Paul states, "from first to last, the righteous shall live by faith". So, faith is the issue, not beliefs.

You get remission of sins through baptism.

Acts 2
38 Peter said to them, " Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.





And your sins are washed away through baptism.

Acts 22
16 'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'

 

[HeatherJay]

Hey guys...I'm really enjoying following your discussion. Just a (possibly silly) question.

You get remission of sins through baptism...And your sins are washed away through baptism.

Then what about sins committed AFTER baptism. Would you say it's necessary to be re-baptised for remission of sin? Are you saying that the physical act of baptism is the only way that sins can be washed away?

 

[apenman]

So all I have to do is love my neighbour and I’m saved?

In the case of both Abraham and Rahab, they believed God, they acted on that belief, which made it faith, and thier actions throughout their lives would have fulfilled the law of Christ, so their faith was saving faith.

Ok I see what ya mean. If you look at

Romans 6:16 it says that obedience leads to righteousness. This means that to be saved we need to be obedient and then we become righteous. If we neglect the command to be baptised and to baptise for the remission of sins then we are not saved.

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

Your focus is on the wrong obedience. Consider this:

Luke 6:46, "Why do you call me, `Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?" (NIV)

So, Christ is saying, "do what I say", and what does he say?? I have shown you that three times he says his command is to "love one another". This is what it means to do what he said.

Now, we know from scripture that there is only one judgment, that being the judgment of Christ, and in that judgment all people will be judged the same way, so if Rahab & the thief on the cross are saved without baptism, then so can anyone be saved without baptism.

You get remission of sins through baptism.

Acts 2
38 Peter said to them, " Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.



Acts 22
16 'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'

None of these verses is actually saying that one cannot be saved without baptism. You are reading too much into what the verses are stating. Being dunked in water does not save anyone, it is Christ who saves, and water baptism is merely symbolic of his sacrifice.

 

[apenman]

Hey guys...I'm really enjoying following your discussion. Just a (possibly silly) question.

Then what about sins committed AFTER baptism. Would you say it's necessary to be re-baptised for remission of sin? Are you saying that the physical act of baptism is the only way that sins can be washed away?

I'm certainly not saying this, and I don't think that scripture is either.

 

[HeatherJay]

I'm certainly not saying this, and I don't think that scripture is either.

Thanks apenman. I was interested in hearing nebuchadnezzar's thoughts on my question as well.

 

[nebuchadnezzar]

Hey guys...I'm really enjoying following your discussion. Just a (possibly silly) question.

​

Then what about sins committed AFTER baptism. Would you say it's necessary to be re-baptised for remission of sin? Are you saying that the physical act of baptism is the only way that sins can be washed away?

No. You see, when you are baptised you put on Christ. (Galatians 3
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.) When you put on Christ his blood covers your sins whenever you ask for it, or when you repent. So if you sin after baptism all you have to do is ask for forgiveness. Simple! Notice that before all this can happen you have to be baptised.

And it wasn’t a silly question at all. I had the same question when I didn’t understand baptism.

Originally Posted by: nebuchadnezzar

So all I have to do is love my neighbour and I’m saved?
​

​

In the case of both Abraham and Rahab, they believed God, they acted on that belief, which made it faith, and thier actions throughout their lives would have fulfilled the law of Christ, so their faith was saving faith.

So loving my neighbour is not the only thing that I have to do to be saved?

Originally Posted by: nebuchadnezzar




Ok I see what ya mean. If you look at Romans 6:16 it says that obedience leads to righteousness. This means that to be saved we need to be obedient and then we become righteous. If we neglect the command to be baptised and to baptise for the remission of sins then we are not saved.

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
​

​

Your focus is on the wrong obedience. Consider this:

Luke 6:46,"Why do you call me, `Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?" (NIV)

So, Christ is saying, "do what I say", and what does he say?? I have shown you that three times he says his command is to "love one another". This is what it means to do what he said.

Jesus did not have the single command of love one another. And furthermore there are more than one command in the bible. Lets have a look at a random one that I looked up. (ok well maybe not quite random)

Matthew 28:19
"Go therefore and make disciples of the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,



What has Jesus just commanded his Apostles to do? To go and make disciples. And how do you become a disciple? By being baptised in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Originally Posted by: nebuchadnezzar




You get remission of sins through baptism.
Acts 2

38 Peter said to them, " Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.



Acts 22
16 'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'​

​

​

​

​

None of these verses is actually saying that one cannot be saved without baptism. You are reading too much into what the verses are stating. Being dunked in water does not save anyone, it is Christ who saves, and water baptism is merely symbolic of his sacrifice.

The Acts 2 vs says that baptism leads to forgivness of sins. What you are saying is that these vs don't say your saved. This means by implication that you are telling me that you don't have to have your sins forgiven for you to be saved? That is strange logic. That is not what the vs says. Your receive forgiveness when you are baptised.

Furthermore where is symbolism used in the below passage?

Peter 3:21
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you, not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

No symbolism there. Plain and simple. Baptism now saves you. Not my word but the words of God. I have not put my own interpritation on this vs. It is just cut and past from the Bible.





HeatherJay, feel free to ask anymore questions. I would be more than happy to show the vs's.

 

[StreetPreacher]

Water baptism has nothing to do with salvation.

 

[apenman]

Water baptism has nothing to do with salvation.

 

[StreetPreacher]

I really don't know what your point is, but the law does not give freedom, it condemns.

 

[apenman]

So loving my neighbour is not the only thing that I have to do to be saved?

I have already shown you that for Gentiles in the OT the faith of Rahab was saving faith, so it can be applied to any Gentile, just as the faith of Abraham can be applied to any Jew, no water baptism required.

So, anyone in the OT could believe God, then act on that belief, which then makes it faith, and if the actions from that faith fulfill the law of Christ, in the judgment of Christ, it is then saving faith. Now, the exact same standard of faith applies to people today, the faith can be directly in Christ, or in God. As long as the faith produces fruit that fulfills the law of Christ, then the faith is saving faith.

So, Christ gives us the law of Christ, which is love one another:

John 13:34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another." (NIV)

There is the new command, quoted right out of scripture, and here is what James states about that command:

James 2:12-13, "Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!" (NIV)

And here is the judgment of Christ, under the law that gives freedom, described in Christ's own words, it is all people OT & NT, from beginning to end.

Matthew 25:31-46
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, `Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37 "Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40 "The King will reply, `I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41 "Then he will say to those on his left, `Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44 "They also will answer, `Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45 "He will reply, `I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (NIV)

And this is exactly what Paul is talking about when he states that "from first to last, the righteous shall live by faith".

The Acts 2 vs says that baptism leads to forgivness of sins. What you are saying is that these vs don't say your saved. This means by implication that you are telling me that you don't have to have your sins forgiven for you to be saved? That is strange logic. That is not what the vs says. Your receive forgiveness when you are baptised.

Furthermore where is symbolism used in the below passage?

I am saying that the righteous are saved, and it is faith that makes a person righteous, not water baptism.

Peter 3:21
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you, not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

No symbolism there. Plain and simple. Baptism now saves you. Not my word but the words of God. I have not put my own interpritation on this vs. It is just cut and past from the Bible.

1 Peter 3:18-21, "For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also -- not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ," (NIV)

The subject of the above is the flood of Noah, and how those in the ark "were saved through water", "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also", "It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ".

Now, the flood of Noah symbolizes the sacrifice of Christ, NOT water baptism, this is what Peter is saying. He isn't saying that we're saved by water baptism, he is saying that we are saved by the sacrifice of Christ, which is the true baptism.

 

[apenman]

I really don't know what your point is, but the law does not give freedom, it condemns.

The law of Moses condemns, the law of Christ gives freedom. Look at this:

James 2:12-13, "Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!" (NIV)

Here James talks about the law that gives freedom, it is the law of Christ.

 

[jgarden]

Baptism is symbolic but the early Church practiced naked full immersion, sometimes 3X and often early Easter morning "to coincide" with the Resurrection. Christians in the first 3 centuries were largely the poor and uneducated so a literal interpretation would have a greater impact. One could only take communion, the greatest sacrament, after baptism. Baptism was often the culmination of a 3 year period of religious instruction. Baptism was taken very seriously and could only happen once in a lifetime. Constantine postponed it till his deathbed, and even St. Augustine held back earlier in his life.

"Give me chastity and continence, but not too soon." (St. Augustine)

 

[nebuchadnezzar]

Originally Posted by: nebuchadnezzar




So loving my neighbour is not the only thing that I have to do to be saved?

​

I have already shown you that for Gentiles in the OT the faith of Rahab was saving faith, so it can be applied to any Gentile, just as the faith of Abraham can be applied to any Jew, no water baptism required.

Avoiding the question.

So, anyone in the OT could believe God, then act on that belief, which then makes it faith, and if the actions from that faith fulfill the law of Christ, in the judgment of Christ, it is then saving faith. Now, the exact same standard of faith applies to people today, the faith can be directly in Christ, or in God. As long as the faith produces fruit that fulfills the law of Christ, then the faith is saving faith.

You have just stated that you have to act on belief to have faith. And the act is to be baptised and follow the other commandments of the bible.

So, Christ gives us the law of Christ, which is love one another:

John 13:34"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another." (NIV)

There is the new command, quoted right out of scripture, and here is what James states about that command:

James 2:12-13, "Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!" (NIV)

And here is the judgment of Christ, under the law that gives freedom, described in Christ's own words, it is all people OT & NT, from beginning to end.

Matthew 25:31-46
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, `Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37 "Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40 "The King will reply, `I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41 "Then he will say to those on his left, `Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44 "They also will answer, `Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45 "He will reply, `I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (NIV)

And this is exactly what Paul is talking about when he states that "from first to last, the righteous shall live by faith".

Faith alone does not save.

James 2:24
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faithalone.

Plain and simple. Just having faith is dead without deeds of righteousness.

James 2:26
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Originally Posted by: nebuchadnezzar

The Acts 2 vs says that baptism leads to forgivness of sins. What you are saying is that these vs don't say your saved. This means by implication that you are telling me that you don't have to have your sins forgiven for you to be saved? That is strange logic. That is not what the vs says. Your receive forgiveness when you are baptised.

Furthermore where is symbolism used in the below passage?



​

​

I am saying that the righteous are saved, and it is faith that makes a person righteous, not water baptism.

Baptism washes away your sins.

Acts 22
16 'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'

​

Originally Posted by: nebuchadnezzar




Peter 3:21

Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you, not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

No symbolism there. Plain and simple. Baptism now saves you. Not my word but the words of God. I have not put my own interpritation on this vs. It is just cut and past from the Bible.
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1 Peter 3:18-21, "For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also -- not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ," (NIV)

The subject of the above is the flood of Noah, and how those in the ark "were saved through water", "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also", "It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ".

I agree that it saves you by the resurrection of Christ. But without baptism you cannot be saved by the resurrection of Christ.

Now, the flood of Noah symbolizes the sacrifice of Christ, NOT water baptism, this is what Peter is saying. He isn't saying that we're saved by water baptism, he is saying that we are saved by the sacrifice of Christ, which is the true baptism.

Where on earth did you get that from. The flood of Noah was to wash away the sinful being of the earth. Just as baptism is to wash away the sins of the individual now.

Baptism is symbolic but the early Church practiced naked full immersion, sometimes 3X and often early Easter morning "to coincide" with the Resurrection.

I don’t know where you got your info but it is mistaken.

Christians in the first 3 centuries were largely the poor and uneducated so a literal interpretation would have a greater impact. One could only take communion, the greatest sacrament, after baptism. Baptism was often the culmination of a 3 year period of religious instruction.

Well the eunuch did not have three years of instruction. He was taught the basics and when he understood the commitment he was making he was immediately baptised.












No matter what is said the bible speaks for itself.



Acts 22
16 'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'



Baptism washes away sins. Not my interpretation. It is what the word of God says.

If you don’t get baptised you don’t have your sins washed away and you cannot benefit from the resurrection of Christ.

 

[Dukey]

Just wanted to get some opinions on this topic. Let me know what ya'll think.

Cheers

water baptism is just a work