Is water baptism a requirment to be saved

[Dave-W]

GOD telling Peter not to call unclean what HE HAS MADE CLEAN?
how is that a side issue

It has nothing to do with water baptism.

 

[Wolf_Says]

The only reason we are not to consider another man's works as a show of his or her faith, is, because, one, we cannot judge or determine anything at all by another man's works as far as his faith goes, only God and that individual is the only one(s) who know(s) and can, we cannot...

And, two, some can appear to have many good works, but they can apart from and be out of not any real, true genuine faith, and only God and that individual knows for sure, we cannot...

That is why it is not works alone, but faith and works. We need both.

 

[sdowney717]

Maybe, maybe not. Spirit Upon includes all supernatural manifiestations like tongues and prophecy can happen to the unsaved. Remember even Saul when he was trying to kill David and Caiaphas when he was plotting to kill Jesus both prophesied.

Ok, but not in the context of the message from the Holy Spirit there in Acts 10 and 11.
God tells Peter He has made them clean, they are saved, He has made them born from above. The dramatic falling of the Holy Spirit on them convinced all who were with Peter that they were God's chosen people these particular gentiles.

 

[JoeP222w]

Not what the bible says, John 3:5


Same as above, John 3:5

Sounds pretty clear that we need to be born of "water and the Spirit" or we cannot enter the kingdom of God, and getting into heaven is the meaning of salvation.

"water" is referring to birth from the womb, not sacramental baptism done by the church.

 

[miknik5]

I use to believe this as well......which is why i still dont judge and say i KNOW the way........cant give specific directions to a place I've never been... This is what blind leading blind means.

But this is a very dangerous belief...as there is no repentance in the grave. I will find heaven before my body Dies.....after that, there will be no Death for Me. Then i will come and show others the Way.......and of course will be despised and rejected by most.

Let 1 John 5 be of encouragement

 

[Neogaia777]

We are saved by Christ's works, not our own works.
This is actually a fundamental doctrine of God.

Ephesians 2New King James Version (NKJV)
By Grace Through Faith
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Genuine faith, in due time, always, always produces good works, if it is genuine, but, we cannot know or judge by, or with that, only God and that individual can...

 

[Wolf_Says]

We are saved by Christ's works, not our own works.
This is actually a fundamental doctrine of God.

Ephesians 2New King James Version (NKJV)
By Grace Through Faith
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Yes, Grace through faith, however not FAITH ALONE.

Otherwise please explain James 2:14-26 and Matthew 25:31-46

 

[JoeP222w]

....so if one is NOT baptized then he is not following Christ and is in disobedience/unrighteousness.

One is justified by the grace of God alone, by faith alone, through Jesus Christ alone, not by works of the Law. Obedience does not make one righteous before God. Obedience follows from being righteous before God, through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. Obedience is the fruit of salvation, not the root.

 

[Wolf_Says]

"water" is referring to birth from the womb, not sacramental baptism done by the church.

Show me where that is stated then, and why Jesus commanded the apostles to go and baptize all nations, and why was Jesus himself baptized by John in the river if, "water" is simply referring to being birthed from the womb.

 

[miknik5]

It has nothing to do with water baptism.

Yes I know. I thought you didn't understand that.
But as you do please then tell why you suggest even two baptisms (let alone 7) when there is only ONE BAPTISM

 

[Dave-W]

Ok, but not in the context of the message from the Holy Spirit there in Acts 10 and 11.

The context of ALL SCRIPTURE.

We are not given all the details of what happened both in the physical and in the spirit realm in Acts 10 and 11. So we really cannot say at what point Cornelius et al were "saved." Certainly before Peter spoke, they were not, and after all the events were done, they were. For us to try and pinpoint something is reading our own doctrines and viewpoints back into scripture.

Paul said in 1 Cor 13 that we see thru a glass dimly. That is by God's design. We do not NEED to pinpoint the exact point of salvation. He controls that, not us.

And getting back to my first response to this thread - WHY do we want to know since I am sure everyone here is already believing, repentant and has been baptized. It is history.

Just remember - the next time you share the gospel and get a positive response, find water and baptize them ASAP. IT is YOUR responsibility, not theirs. If they refuse - then that is another matter altogether.

 

[Dave-W]

But as you do please then tell why you suggest even two baptisms (let alone 7) when there is only ONE BAPTISM

Because they are listed in the NT as separate things.

And not everyone goes thru all of them. Remember Jesus' asking John and James if they were willing to undergo the baptism he was about to experience (the cross)? That is the baptism of suffering.

The "one baptism" was talking about unity in the entire body of believers.

ETA: In Hebrews 6, the writer lists the 6 foundational doctrines of the Christian Faith. One of them is "Instruction about baptisms" which is plural.

 

[sdowney717]

Genuine faith, in due time, always, always produces good works, if it is genuine, but, we cannot know or judge by, or with that, only God and that individual can...

If the faith is genuine, then it has it's beginning in the work of God in your life because of His great love for you in particular, He made you heaven born, meaning your citizenship is now in heaven and of that place is your native right, duties, obligations. You are belonging to that far country Jesus spoke of.

BibleGateway - : far country

 

[miknik5]

Show me where that is stated then, and why Jesus commanded the apostles to go and baptize all nations, and why was Jesus himself baptized by John in the river if, "water" is simply referring to being birthed from the womb.

That's going to be difficult if you don't understand rhT all the lower signs of visible things which GOD laid out throughout HIS WORD pointed to all the HIGHER INVISIBLE SPIRITUAL TRUTHS found in CHRIST
first


What was GOD's command to all those who passed through the waters with Moses?

Please review exodus 12 and 13

 

[Neogaia777]

If the faith is genuine, then it has it's beginning in the work of God in your life because of His great love for you in particular, He made you heaven born, meaning your citizenship is now in heaven and of that place is your native right, duties, obligations. You are belonging to that far country Jesus spoke of.

BibleGateway - : far country

I agree...

Have any comments about what i had to say about baptism, maybe...?

Things have been moving so fast in this thread that I don't know if anyone even saw them...?

God Bless!

 

[miknik5]

Because they are listed in the NT as separate things.

And not everyone goes thru all of them. Remember Jesus' asking John and James if they were willing to undergo the baptism he was about to experience (the cross)? That is the baptism of suffering.

The "one baptism" was talking about unity in the entire body of believers.

Ah?

And you understood then hy Paul was reprimanding the church at Corinth regarding baptism and why he said I don't remember baptizing any of you?

Can a man be baptized into a man?

 

[JoeP222w]

Show me where that is stated then, and why Jesus commanded the apostles to go and baptize all nations, and why was Jesus himself baptized by John in the river if, "water" is simply referring to being birthed from the womb.

John 3:4-5 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" (5) Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.


In context, Jesus is directly responding to Nicodemus about birth from his mother's womb, so, yes it is referring to natural birth from the mother. Nicodemus was not asking Jesus about sacramental baptism, since Nicodemus would have known about the baptism of John the Baptist, and he would ask about baptism if that is what he meant.

Jesus commanded His disciples to baptize people as the sign of an already inward change.

Matthew 28:19-20 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (20) teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

The sequence indicates that they were to become disciples first in sequence, professing belief in Jesus Christ, then they were to be baptized secondarily, demonstrating an outward sign of an inward change. Baptism is not a requirement of salvation.

The Repentant Thief on the cross also demonstrates that water baptism is not required for salvation.

 

[Wolf_Says]

That's going to be difficult if you don't understand rhT all the lower signs of visible things which GOD laid out throughout HIS WORD pointed to all the HIGHER INVISIBLE SPIRITUAL TRUTHS found in CHRIST
first


What was GOD's command to all those who passed through the waters with Moses?

Please review exodus 12 and 13

......what?

We are talking about the new covenant, not the old.

You are talking about how first born are consecrated to God, this is not the same thing as baptism. Is this really where you are pulling this idea of "water means birth from our mother."?

 

[miknik5]

I think one of the posters began discussing this

Can any man baptize another man...into Christ Jesus?

 

[miknik5]

......what?

We are talking about the new covenant, not the old.

You are talking about how first born are consecrated to God, this is not the same thing as baptism. Is this really where you are pulling this idea of "water means birth from our mother."?

Oy vey!!!!
So am I!