Is water baptism a requirment to be saved

TheSeabass · Feb 3, 2017

JohnKing67 said:
So you believe you can be baptized at any point in your life, no matter what spiritual condition your in at the time and that counts?

One cannot be baptized unless he first hears the gospel (Romans 10:17) and believes (Mark 16:16).

miknik5 · Feb 3, 2017

DrBubbaLove said:
Gladly if you will answers my questions first.

I did

And being washed means being washed. Christ's blood doesn't wash away some of our sins

HIS blood washes away all our sins

DrBubbaLove · Feb 3, 2017

miknik5 said:
A subsequent baptism can remit all sins if one makes a true profession of their faith in THE GOSPEL"

Is there a problem?

miknik5 said:
What?

Sorry but I don't understand what you are trying to say period

miknik5 said:
Some amount of the spirit?

I don't understand that either

Still like an answer to the two questions. I felt the slight embellishing part was the assumption all of Cornelius relatives were "saved" and that there was some "profession of faith" by all.

There is no mention of a "true profession of faith" of all Cornelius relatives brought to hear the Apostle, as Cornelius is the only mentioned talking. Saint Peter preached. The Spirit came down on "all who heard the Word" and the evidence of that Spirit being present in those people was demonstrated in behavior. I think it would be presumptuous to think everyone hearing the sermon had the Spirit come upon them, but rather only those that heard and believed (and maybe not even on all of those or at least not the same degree). Christians Jews witnessing marveled that Gentiles had received the same Spirit as they. Presumably hearing this Peter declares how can we not Baptize those who have received the Spirit. This is neither a denial that Baptism remits sin or even a declaration of a proper order (as in Spirit first, then Baptism or Baptism then Spirit). He is indicating that Baptism is a requirement for the believer. He then commanded it be done immediately. We should remember too that early on many Jewish converts still wrongly assumed to be a Christian that one had to first become Jewish and held very strong opinions about it.

Am saying the more we sin, the more we grieve God's Spirit, and our sinning without remittance could reach a point that Spirit that was "fully indwelling in us" can no longer abide as it can when ALL prior sins are remitted. Which is why it is a good idea to stress the importance as Saint Peter did with having a new believer be baptized as soon as possible. Also why the Apostles repeatedly stressed the practice of Reconciliation with God to Christians already Baptized.

DrBubbaLove · Feb 3, 2017

miknik5 said:
I did

And being washed means being washed. Christ's blood doesn't wash away some of our sins

HIS blood washes away all our sins

You did not actually. You said,

miknik5 said:
A subsequent baptism can remit all sins if one makes a true profession of their faith in THE GOSPEL

Is there a problem?

Which goes to the embellishing point on Acts 10 again, there is no "true profession of faith in the Gospel" mentioned in that story. So yes there is a problem and no that that did not answer my questions. I'll rephrase.

What sort "true profession of faith" could an infant or child hearing Saint Peter could have been made before being Baptized?
As you agreed a true believer can get all sins remitted through a Baptism, why would anyone not want that so that by obeying that command and having ALL prior sins remitted (washed away), allowing the maximum assistant a believer can get from the indwelling of the Spirit?

Other naysayers compel me to add that Baptism gives a Grace of remitting sins only made possible because of what Jesus did. The OT prophesy about His actions, (He being the fountain of living water Jer 17), His actions in Jerusalem opening that fountain (Zec 13) are often connected to the Sacrament of Baptism as well as His own Baptism.

Maybe "some amount of Spirit" was the wrong choice of wording for me to use. The idea remains that our sins would stand as an impediment to getting help from that spirit unless they are all fully remitted. We both agree Baptism by God's Grace (not magic water) does that. In the Catholic view and that of others, we can sin to a point where we lose that "indwelling". Been there done that.

Daniel9v9 · Feb 4, 2017

DeepWater said:
Actually, justification by faith is the means that God has instituted for our salvation.
So, if water saves, then everyone is saved when they take a shower or a bubble bath.
Any baby Christian, should understand that water baptism follows, conversion.
Being born again is the proof you are saved, and never a dunk in a pool or a sprinkle from a magic wand should be considered as redemption.
If you have a bible, then you'll notice that every person who was water baptized was converted first.
Its works like this.....BELIEVE and then be water baptized.
See it?
It the BELIEVING that God requires to redeem using The Blood of Jesus, and following that, you are to be baptized.
However, if you are water baptized but are not born again by the Spirit of God, then you are just as lost as you could possible be.

Mary7 said:
Our means of salvation is Jesus dying on the cross as the sacrifice for our sins. If baptism were the means of salvation then He did not need to die but could have just order us all to be baptized.
without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness Hebews 9:22

Sorry, I think the both of you are entirely missing my point. I am talking about justification by faith alone.

Perhaps an exaggerated example, but what you're saying could be compared to someone asking: "How can a man live?" One person answers "He has to breathe". Another says "No! He has to eat". Here we're failing to see we're speaking about the same thing; that is, one Lord, one faith, one baptism. Ephesians 4:5
This is not to be understood as a checklist for what needs to be done in order to earn or merit salvation, for no man can earn or merit salvation by any of our own means or works, for we are dead in sin, and salvation is freely given to us by God's grace. For only through faith Christ Jesus, by his works and merits, are we counted as righteous before God.

If that doesn't make any sense, perhaps this does:
1. Our Lord Jesus Christ, on the cross, once and for all paid for all sins past, present and future. The blood of Christ washes away all sins:
1 John 1:7 Hebrews 9:12-14 Hebrews 9:12-14 Hebrews 13:11-12 Revelation 7:14 Acts 20:28 2 Corinthians 5:21 John 3:16

2. Baptism washes away sins:
Acts 22:16 Acts 2:38 Mark 16:16

How are these truths aligned? Above it says that both Christ and baptism washes away sins. So which is it? It's both. Or rather, it points to the same thing - God's mercy through His son, Jesus Christ.

This can be properly understood when explaining what baptism is - a death and resurrection into Christ, in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, by water and the Word, worked by the Holy Spirit, which is only apprehended by faith - all of which is a free gift from God, according to His love and grace:
Galatians 3:27 Colossians 2:12 Romans 6:3-11 John 3:1-21

We're in fundamental error if we consider baptism as mere water - to the point where we're missing elementary Biblical truths. It's not "magical water", but plain water, and of course plain water doesn't have the power to wash away sins. It's regular water and God's Word put together; that is, the power of God and His good promise in baptism, which was instituted by Christ Jesus, given to us as means for salvation in Christ, apprehended through faith.

When I'm talking about "means of salvation" this should not be confused with "work of salvation", for this belongs to Christ alone.

When I talk about the means of salvation, faith and baptism, and that God is not bound by means, I refer to this:
That justification is through faith in Jesus Christ alone. Baptism is the given means to which we are born anew in Christ, but God is not bound by means - He's not bound by any created thing, law, order or decree, but He is sovereign and He has mercy on whom He has mercy. A practical example of this is when sometimes Jesus heals through means - perhaps through saliva and sand to make mud, which through faith brings healing. But in other cases he simply skips the means and proclaim that through faith we are healed. I suppose it would be fair to say that the means are mainly for our benefit, and not God. That is, that we may either passively partake or bear witness to God's grace. However, I think it's important to not compromise God's command and will up against what He is able to do. We shouldn't test God. If he gave us baptism with the promise of forgiveness of sins, the Holy Spirit, life and adoption, why then, should we be skeptical or act against that? Shouldn't we rather rejoice in his word and promise? Baptism is not something outside Christ, or a way around Christ, but it's a baptism into Christ, through repentance and faith.

I'm sorry for the lengthy post, but I sincerely hope you consider all this and pray about it - better yet - I would challenge you to read everything the Bible has to say about baptism and being born again. If you still disagree, come back and argue or rebuke me as you see fit.

Conservative Crackpot · Feb 4, 2017

There are a great many believers on both sides of this issue. If we believe in the inerrancy of Gods word, we must also believe that the seeming contradictions found are there for a specific reason. We must seek God by focus and faith on Christ and His finished work in the cross, and when we do we are promised spiritual understanding of His word.

Requisite to Christ in us is the denial of self. One aspect of this is looking to scripture focused not on supporting our preconceived ideas, but rather open to what God would reveal to us thru His Spirit.

Have questions? Opinions of others are great, but going to the author is where it's at. He knows what He meant!!

sdowney717 · Feb 4, 2017

DrBubbaLove said:
It is required of the believer, upon receiving His Word and is done for the remission of sins, creating a fully clean vessel for a complete indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Put another way, if death came as one arises from the water salvation may be assured. The reason some believers at one time sought to delay Baptism until they thought they were approaching deaths door.

"On that day there shall be a fountain opened for the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to cleanse them from sin and uncleanness.'

'John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.'

"and he went into all the region about the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins."

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

"And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
...
So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls."

"And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.'

"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."

"For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and all were made to drink of one Spirit."

Hold on there, you said we must make ourselves clean as a requirement
"It is required of the believer, upon receiving His Word and is done for the remission of sins, creating a fully clean vessel for a complete indwelling of the Holy Spirit. "

Christ says though to His people before they were baptized into Christ this.
John 15:3 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
3 Now ye are clean through the Word which I have spoken unto you.
John's baptism was insufficient, so don't tell me they were water baptized into the church.

And the mention of
1 Corinthians 12:12-14 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we are Jews or Gentiles, whether we are bond or free, and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

Clearly not water baptism since it says that baptism was done by one Spirit, (not a man) that is Christ who baptizes us by the Holy Spirit into His church.

miknik5 · Feb 4, 2017

DrBubbaLove said:
Still like an answer to the two questions. I felt the slight embellishing part was the assumption all of Cornelius relatives were "saved" and that there was some "profession of faith" by all.

miknik said:

acts 10:44 (All were saved). The Holy Spirit is THAT seal that any who believe...receive. And the TRUTH that ALL received the HOLY SPIRIT is that they ALL began to glorify GOD Peter saw and recognized that ALL had received the HOLY SPIRIT (even before water baptism) which is why he said should we deny water baptism seeing all these have received the HOLY SPIRIT?

Click to expand...

There is no mention of a "true profession of faith" of all Cornelius relatives brought to hear the Apostle, as Cornelius is the only mentioned talking.

mik nik said:

. They ALL began to glorify GOD. When one receives THE HOLY SPIRIT believing THE GOSPEL, THE HOLY SPIRIT begins to teach and lead the believer (and Peter recognized that this was what happened because they were ALL speaking the TRUTHS of GOD which can only be known by THE SPIRIT) .

THE HOLY SPIRIT glorifies CHRIST. Peter preached CHRIST...and they ALL believed

Click to expand...

Saint Peter preached. The Spirit came down on "all who heard the Word" and the evidence of that Spirit being present in those people was demonstrated in behavior. I think it would be presumptuous to think everyone hearing the sermon had the Spirit come upon them, but rather only those that heard and believed (and maybe not even on all of those or at least not the same degree).

miknik said:

. I think it's presumptuous to say that ALL means some when GOD's WORD says ALL

Click to expand...

Christians Jews witnessing marveled that Gentiles had received the same Spirit as they. Presumably hearing this Peter declares how can we not Baptize those who have received the Spirit. This is neither a denial that Baptism remits sin or even a declaration of a proper order (as in Spirit first, then Baptism or Baptism then Spirit). He is indicating that Baptism is a requirement for the believer. He then commanded it be done immediately. We should remember too that early on many Jewish converts still wrongly assumed to be a Christian that one had to first become Jewish and held very strong opinions about it.

miknik said:

We should remember that the reason Peter was sent to a gentile was to teach him that "what GOD makes clean is clean "

God made clean which Peter both acknowledged and accepted when he said prior to water baptism "do we have any right to deny water baptism seeing these have received GOD's HOLY SPIRIT (GOD's SEAL)?

Click to expand...

Am saying the more we sin, the more we grieve God's Spirit, and our sinning without remittance could reach a point that Spirit that was "fully indwelling in us" can no longer abide as it can when ALL prior sins are remitted. Which is why it is a good idea to stress the importance as Saint Peter did with having a new believer be baptized as soon as possible. Also why the Apostles repeatedly stressed the practice of Reconciliation with God to Christians already Baptized.

miknik said:
do not grieve the HOLY SPIRIT of whom you were SEALED to the day of redemption?
GOD disciplines HIS CHILDREN when they sin. And when they confess their sins HE IS FAITHFUL and JUST to purify us of all unrighteousness...all who hope in CHRIST purify themselves even as HE IS PURE

miknik5 · Feb 4, 2017

please expand on the post. I responded to ALL your questions

miknik5 · Feb 4, 2017

GOD washes us where we can NOT wash ourselves. Water washes the outside and signifies what GID has done

Don't you think Naaman figured out that it wasn't the water in the Jordan that restored him to as a child?

No man can clean the slate of his soul clean where GOD sees but GOD

And CHRIST said if o do not wash you you have no part with ME

And if HE does not wash us no amount of water will bring us into CHRIST so that we have a part with HIM

It's belief and faith in THE TRUTH of GOD's WORD and PROMISE all visibly seen in CHRIST that makes clean before GOD what apart from CHRIST is unclean before GOD

miknik5 · Feb 4, 2017

THE CROSS is the POWER and WISDOM of GOD....

FOR ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE

Der Alte · Feb 4, 2017

TheSeabass said:
"Believe" and believe only" are two completely different things. Adding the word "only" is changing God's word. If a recipe for a cake has eggs as an ingredient, then "eggs" and "eggs only" are not the same thing for "eggs only" will never get you a cake. Christ's "recipe" for salvation was never "believe only" but includes repentance Luke 13:3; confession, Matthew 10:32-33 and baptism, Mark 16:16. Since repentance is part of the 'recipe' can "belief only" ever save an impenitent person? No. No more than "eggs only" can get one a cake.

This is all interesting but here is an important question for the understanding being proposed. What did the Philippian jailer understand when Paul said "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house?" The jailer was a Philippian not a Jew or a Christian therefore he did not have either testament. He had not sat down and read all of the NT, which OBTW had not been written at that time. Would he have understood that baptism was also a requirement? Or more logically would he have understood the only requirement was "believe?"

ultra.immaculate · Feb 4, 2017

Ken Rank said:
You make a really good point and I want to share an often missed gem.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Notice how the KJV added an "est" to one form of believe, but did not to the other. What the translators were doing here was differentiating between active and passive forms of the word. When we see "believest" (or believeth) it is active, without the "est" is passive. The difference is the active form demands ACTION... it isn't just believing in the sense of being convinced in the mind, it is believing to the point of action, WORKS. It is tied to faith... faith comes by HEARING and faith without works is dead. So, true faith is hearing and doing. On the other hand, the devils believe and tremble. Their form is passive... they are not hearing God and acting on what they hear, they are in rebellion. By the way, even John 3:16 is in the active form.

What a gem! Thanks!

miknik5 · Feb 4, 2017

lollykh said:
What a gem! Thanks!

Except for one thing. The believers were praying for those who needed IMMEDIATE ACTION

here's a believer who didn't know naturally that he should provide for those who are In need who were right before him and whom he was capable of providing for their natural need at that moment and he doesn't do it

He prays be warm?
He's supposed to be (and is known to be) "spiritually rich" but doesn't act and give what he should have done for the person in need?

We who say we are spiritual should pray but should never neglect to provide the physical needs when we are capable abd responsible to do so

No different than ( in fact worse) what Timothy said of the person who does not even provide for his own family that they should be considered worse than an UNbeliever

miknik5 · Feb 4, 2017

i would like to know what happens for all those ( at the last hour) who call on the name of THE LORD

miknik5 · Feb 4, 2017

TheSeabass said:
Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Born of water & Spirit>>>>>>>>>>>>enter the kingdom
Doeth the will of the Father>>>>>>>>>enter the kingdom

There is one way to enter the kingdom/be saved. Obeying by submitting to water baptized is DOING as the Father commanded (Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47-48). There is no being born again without DOING.

Being born again has nothing to do with the physical birth/corruptible seed, 1 Peter 1:23

Do you know what the will of THE FATHER is?

miknik5 · Feb 4, 2017

If you read John 6 you'll find out both the WORK
and the WILL of GOD

I also would like to remind of the TRUTH that those who love their lives will lose it and those who lose their lives for HIM and THE GOSPEL will find it and keep it to eternal life

Seek first HIS KINGDOM and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS

What type of "work" are you declaring we should do?

TheSeabass · Feb 4, 2017

Der Alter said:
This is all interesting but here is an important question for the understanding being proposed. What did the Philippian jailer understand when Paul said "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house?" The jailer was a Philippian not a Jew or a Christian therefore he did not have either testament. He had not sat down and read all of the NT, which OBTW had not been written at that time. Would he have understood that baptism was also a requirement? Or more logically would he have understood the only requirement was "believe?"

Looking at the sequence of events in Acts 16, when the jailer was commanded to believe in v31 he had not yet been told/heard what to believe. It is not until v32 the "word of the Lord" was spoken unto him. Baptism is part of the word of the Lord spoken to him, as Phillip preached "Jesus" (Acts 8:35) to the eunuch who was then baptized. Preaching "Jesus" and speaking the "word of the Lord" is preaching baptism. Acts 16:34 "And he brought them up into his house, and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, with all his house, having believed in God." The participle "having believed" includes what the jailer had just did, repenting (washing stripes) and being baptized. It cannot be ignored what the jailer did in v33.

NT belief/faith includes baptism:

Ephesians 2:8------------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1 Peter 3:21--------------baptism>>>>>>>>>>saves

Since there is just one way to be saved, then faith MUST include baptism.

Acts 10:43--------believeth>>>>>>>>>remission of sins
Acts 2:38---------baptized>>>>>>>>>remission of sins

Again, since there is just one way to be saved, then believeth MUST include baptism.

Acts 2:41 "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:..."
Acts 2:44 "And all that believed were together,...."

In verse 44, who were the ones that are said to have "believed"? The ones that accepted Peter's words and were baptized or the ones that rejected Peter's words and not baptized? Of course the ones that are said to have "believed" in v44 are the ones baptized in v41. So "believed" in v44 is used as a figure of speech, a synecdoche where a part stands for the whole, where believe stands for repentance confession and baptism. Much like Peter said in 1 Peter 3:21 that baptism saves, yet Peter is not saying baptism alone saves. Baptism is used as a synedoche where it includes belief, repentance and confession.

Note also the language of v41. The ones NOT baptized did NOT receive the word. Therefore being baptized IS receiving the gospel.

Lastly, Christ never taught belief only saves. He made repentance, Luke 13:3; confession Matthew 10:32-33 and baptism Mark 16:16 of equal importance and necessity in being saved. Paul did not contradict Christ on this matter either. All the belief only in the world will never save an impenitent person, the thief could never be saved without repenting.

TheSeabass · Feb 4, 2017

miknik5 said:
i would like to know what happens for all those ( at the last hour) who call on the name of THE LORD

In Acts 2:21 Peter quoted Joel's prophecy "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." This prophecy of Joel was fulfilled here on the day of Pentecost in the first recorded gospel sermon in verse 38 where Peter commanded his hearers to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.

Acts 2:21--------call upon the name of the Lord>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
Acts 2:38---------repent & be baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>remission of sins

Since there is just one way to be saved/have sins remitted, then calling upon the name of the Lord must be and is repenting and being baptized. Calling upon the name of the Lord means doing what the Lord has said to do and the Lord said to believe Jn 8:24; repent Luke 13:3, confess Mt 10:32-33 be baptized Mark 16:16

Romans 10:9-10---------believe and confess>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
Romans 10:13---------call upon the name of the Lord>>>>>>>>>>>>saved

Therefore calling upon the Lord means one has believed, repented confessed and been baptized as the Lord said.

TheSeabass · Feb 4, 2017

miknik5 said:
Do you know what the will of THE FATHER is?

Believe John 8:24
Repent Luke 13:3
confess Matt 10:32-33
be baptized Mk 16:16

Paul told the Ephesians "Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is." How does one understand what the will of the Lord is? "Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)" Eph 3:4. Reading the word of God gives me understanding as to what the will of the Father is.

Is water baptism a requirment to be saved

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