Is touching yourself a sin? (2)

[Zecryphon]

Haha! "God" is simply the capitalised version of the old norse/german word "gott" which means deity.

There's nothing to rationalize away.

How many do you usually ask about their masturbating habits?

And what's wrong with fantasizing? Is any fantasy sinful by default? I think this says more about your own fantasies than anybody elses.

But the "poster in question" doesn't equal any person who may touch.

I agree that porn can poison people's ideas of sexuality, their bodies etc. But masturbation in itself does the opposite. It's a natural and healthy thing that helps people get to know themselves. Having sex with someone, it's tremendously helpful that they both know their own bodies and what works for them. It also does relive stress and it can aid sleep, and it feels good.

It does? Where?

I'm sure it does, but the bible doesn't call it that. God doesn't call it that. How on earth is mastubation abuse of oneself!?

Come on... really. What makes scratching your back different?

For you, yes, I'm sure that's the case.

They're not?

I don't exactly see the conflict here... your "need" is to do something about that 100% natural, human, God-designed erection, while God on the other hand would that you rather not, because... umm, because of what exactly?

Actually, you'd be the one refusing to die to self here, since you subject yourself to all these "touch not"s and abuse your body and twist sexuality and bodily functions into something weird and unnatural.

Jesus doesn't equal christianity.

"How many do you usually ask about their masturbating habits?"

I have asked no one about their habit of masturbation in this thread, yet here we are talking about it. You don't need to ask directly, some people just like to talk about this topic. LOL


"And what's wrong with fantasizing? Is any fantasy sinful by default? I think this says more about your own fantasies than anybody elses."

Yes, fantasies can be sinful. It depends on what the fantasy involves, what it's substance is. Nice little personal attack there. I know it's what you have to resort to when you have nothing else to bring to the table.


"But the "poster in question" doesn't equal any person who may touch."

People who fantasize about other people while masturbating are objectifying other people for their own pleasure and selfish interests. That is not a healthy behavior, that's my point. The poster in question has admitted to using masturbation as a way to deal with all the lustful thoughts he was having about girls when he was 12 years old.


"I agree that porn can poison people's ideas of sexuality, their bodies etc. But masturbation in itself does the opposite. It's a natural and healthy thing that helps people get to know themselves."

Which psychology or sociology class did you learn this in?

"Having sex with someone, it's tremendously helpful that they both know their own bodies and what works for them. It also does relive stress and it can aid sleep, and it feels good."

Ah, a classic rationalization of sin. I knew you wouldn't let me down. LOL


"It does? Where?"

The fact that you are clueless about this is not surprising. Try Genesis.


"I'm sure it does, but the bible doesn't call it that. God doesn't call it that. How on earth is mastubation abuse of oneself!?"

Did you read the verses in 1 Corinthians? Obviously not.


"Come on... really. What makes scratching your back different?"

Are you scratching your back to acheieve sexual satisfaction or gratification? Another thing that makes scratching your back different is people can scratch their back anywhere they wish, both in public and private, in church too. When's the last time someone masturbated in public or in church without anyone raising at least an eyebrow to their behavior?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
It's also fueled by adulterous thoughts.

"For you, yes, I'm sure that's the case."

Yet, another personal attack that is totally uncalled for in the course of this discussion. Instead of dealing with the statement that masturbation is fueled by adulterous thoughts or trying in some way to counter my statement, you'd rather project a behavior upon me, that you're so certain I'm engaging in, without any proof whatsoever. Just how do you do that? With statements such as this, you're proving my point that when you have nothing to bring to the table, this is the kind of behavior you have to resort to. Ya know for someone who seems to be a liberal Christian you really do justice to the old saying: "liberals love everyone, until someone disagrees with one." Well done, Holo. You can be very proud of yourself. You have not disappointed in the least here. LOL


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
The people you're fantasizing about are not your husband or wife.

"They're not?"

You could fantasize about your spouse, but the success of the porn industry shows that most people who touch, clearly are not thinking of their spouse.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
You're putting your needs above God's desires.

"I don't exactly see the conflict here... "

Of course you don't.

"your "need" is to do something about that 100% natural, human, God-designed erection, while God on the other hand would that you rather not, because... umm, because of what exactly?"

It is in clear violation of His plan for human sexuality. The two shall become one flesh thing, that rings a bell doesn't it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
It's a sin. It's evidence that a person has not truly died to themselves and still live for themselves as opposed to living for God. Since you claim to have died to yourself and live only for God, you should be in agreement with me on this. See 1 Corinthians 6:12-20 for clarification.

"Actually, you'd be the one refusing to die to self here,"

Oh, right I forgot, you can do no wrong.

"since you subject yourself to all these "touch not"s and abuse your body and twist sexuality and bodily functions into something weird and unnatural."

Um no, actually I subject myself to God's written word and His revealed plan for my life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
Why? I've dahsed all your hope for Christianity. There's nothing left for you here. Best to be moving on.

"Jesus doesn't equal christianity"

So, we could have Christianity without Christ? How does that work? I can't wait to hear this one. Should be a doozy! LOL

 

[holo]

"And what's wrong with fantasizing? Is any fantasy sinful by default? I think this says more about your own fantasies than anybody elses."

Yes, fantasies can be sinful. It depends on what the fantasy involves, what it's substance is. Nice little personal attack there. I know it's what you have to resort to when you have nothing else to bring to the table.

You seemed to suggest that fantasizing in itself was bad - and that really doesn't say anything about MY fantasies, only yours. If you can't believe it's possible to maturbate without some sinful fantasy, I can only assume that you have never done without one.

People who fantasize about other people while masturbating are objectifying other people for their own pleasure and selfish interests.

But if they, on the other hand, were actually having sex with this person (let's assume their spose), the difference would be what, exactly?

"I agree that porn can poison people's ideas of sexuality, their bodies etc. But masturbation in itself does the opposite. It's a natural and healthy thing that helps people get to know themselves."

Which psychology or sociology class did you learn this in?

We learned very little about sexuality and masturbation in school, but luckily nobody tried to make us believe it was harmful or sinful. But I'm mostly going by my own experience and that of my friends and, of course, my lover.

"Having sex with someone, it's tremendously helpful that they both know their own bodies and what works for them. It also does relive stress and it can aid sleep, and it feels good."

Ah, a classic rationalization of sin. I knew you wouldn't let me down. LOL

Rationalization? I don't need to rationalize a thing, because it's not sinful to begin with. It's nothing I believe is wrong and that I should be ashamed of. You, who DO believe it's sinful, could try to rationalize it. I can't.

"It does? Where?"

The fact that you are clueless about this is not surprising. Try Genesis.

What does Genesis say about masturbation?

Did you read the verses in 1 Corinthians? Obviously not.

What does 1 Cor say about masturbation?

"Come on... really. What makes scratching your back different?"

Are you scratching your back to acheieve sexual satisfaction ir gratification?

No. Point being? Do you make love to your wife to gratify your sweet tooth?

"For you, yes, I'm sure that's the case."

You never fail to disappoint Holo. Another personal attack that is totally uncalled for in the course of this discussion.

Like the "you obviously never read bible verses A and B" stuff, you mean?

You could fantasize about your spouse, but the success of the porn industry shows that most people who touch, clearly are not thinking of their spouse.

Maybe, but you can't judge ME on what MOST PEOPLE do. It's like saying alcohol is sinful because so and so many people abuse it.

It is in clear violation of His plan for human sexuality. The two shall become one flesh thing, that rings a bell doesn't it?

No, not in regards to masturbation. What does masturbation have to do with that? How does it conflict with it? It's not like there's a competition between masturbation and marriage.

"since you subject yourself to all these "touch not"s and abuse your body and twist sexuality and bodily functions into something weird and unnatural."

Um no, actually I subject myself to God's written word and His revealed plan for my life.

But where and when has he revealed that his plan for you life includes not masturbating? And if that's his plan for your life, why do you assume it's his plan for everybody's life?

"Jesus doesn't equal christianity"

So, we could have Christianity without Christ?

Maybe not. That doesn't mean I want or need christianity though. I love milk. You can't cook real porridge without milk. Doesn't mean I must eat porridge.

Maybe you can't have christianity without Christ, but you most definately can have Christ without christianity. Christ is a person, christianity is a religion.

 

[Floatingaxe]

There is not one sinful or unhealthy thing about masturbation. The ability to touch is a gift from God.

Swoon #2

 

[Zecryphon]

"You seemed to suggest that fantasizing in itself was bad - and that really doesn't say anything about MY fantasies, only yours. If you can't believe it's possible to maturbate without some sinful fantasy, I can only assume that you have never done without one"


So you made an assumption based uopn facts not in evidence.


"But if they, on the other hand, were actually having sex with this person (let's assume their spose), the difference would be what, exactly?"

It would be honoring God's plan for human sexual relations. But only if the two people are married. Being in a comitted relationship doesn't count.


Which psychology or sociology class did you learn this in?

"We learned very little about sexuality and masturbation in school, but luckily nobody tried to make us believe it was harmful or sinful."

Why is that lucky?

"But I'm mostly going by my own experience and that of my friends and, of course, my lover."

So you trust your own experiences more than God's word and counsel through prayer on this matter? Is that wise, in your opinion?


"Rationalization? I don't need to rationalize a thing, because it's not sinful to begin with. It's nothing I believe is wrong and that I should be ashamed of. You, who DO believe it's sinful, could try to rationalize it. I can't."

If it's sinful, I try not to do it. If I do commit a sin, I repent immediately. I don't try and rationalize it away.


"What does Genesis say about masturbation?"

I referred you to Genesis so you could read about God's plan for proper human sexual relations. If you find masturbation is approved by God there, let me know.


"What does 1 Cor say about masturbation?"

1Co 6:18 Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.

1Co 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,

1Co 6:20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

Masturbation is sexually immoral because of the lustful thoughts that accompany the action. When you touch to such thoughts you are also commiting adultery, which is also a form of sexual immorality. God says to flee from sexual immorality.


"No. Point being? Do you make love to your wife to gratify your sweet tooth?"

You're the one throwing the ridiculous parallels out there. I'm just responding to them.


"Like the "you obviously never read bible verses A and B" stuff, you mean?"

Those aren't personal attacks. Those are observations based upon what you have written. If I have personally attacked you, and you think you can prove it, file a report on me. I never said you never read those verses, show me where I said you never read those verses and I wanna see those exact words in whatever quote you attribute to me.


"Maybe, but you can't judge ME on what MOST PEOPLE do."

I'm not judging you.

"It's like saying alcohol is sinful because so and so many people abuse it."

Not at all. Alcohol is not sinful. You should at least pick an activity that is sinful if you're going to be making comparisons.


"No, not in regards to masturbation. What does masturbation have to do with that? How does it conflict with it? It's not like there's a competition between masturbation and marriage."

Masturbation conflicts with a healthy marriage, because when you touch while thinking about having sex with people you're not married to, it's adultery and that is not in keeping with God's plan for marriage. You are to forsake all others when you get married. Masturbation also robs you of intimacy with your wife. God has provided a mate for you to have intimate sexual relations with, you are dishonoring His plan when you satisfy yourself and you are also saying you need something more than what God has provided for you. You're essentially saying, you know better than God what you need. Either you've turned your life over to God or you haven't. I really don't see a middle ground here.


"But where and when has he revealed that his plan for you life includes not masturbating? And if that's his plan for your life, why do you assume it's his plan for everybody's life?"

Does God change? The line of thinking you're putting forth here seems to be "God's plan for your life is not necessarily God's plan for my life". If that's true, then why should God's plan of salvation through repentence of sin and faith in Jesus Christ, then apply to everyone? If God's plan for each person is different, shouldn't each person's plan of salvation be different too? Like some people call upon the name of Christ to be saved, while some may earn their way back to Heaven? How do we determine which parts of God's plan apply to us and which don't?


"Maybe not. That doesn't mean I want or need christianity though. I love milk. You can't cook real porridge without milk. Doesn't mean I must eat porridge.

Maybe you can't have christianity without Christ, but you most definately can have Christ without christianity. Christ is a person, christianity is a religion."

Actually Christ is God in the flesh. If you don't want or need that, why do you call yourself a Christian? Actually, I just looked what you've chosen to reveal about yourself on your stats page up above, and I can't see anything in there that says you're a Christian.

 

[Lightbearer3]

yup it is a sin...not only a sin but will make you go blind...

lol

 

[Lightbearer3]

Swoon #2

lol.....!!!!@! Oh I'm laughing so hard my eyes teared up as I was hitting the table on this pic! Best laugh I've had all week!!

 

[holo]

So you made an assumption based uopn facts not in evidence.

Yes. Anyway, here's a fact, not a presumption: I have masturbated completely apart from fantasies. So it is indeed possible. And from what I hear, women use fantasies to a much lesser degree than men.

"But if they, on the other hand, were actually having sex with this person (let's assume their spose), the difference would be what, exactly?"

It would be honoring God's plan for human sexual relations. But only if the two people are married. Being in a comitted relationship doesn't count.

Yes, marriage is more important than commitment, it seems

That's another debate though.

"We learned very little about sexuality and masturbation in school, but luckily nobody tried to make us believe it was harmful or sinful."

Why is that lucky?

I've seen what all the shame and repression can do to people. I've seen pervertion grow out of it - just look at the pedophilia scandals in the catholic church. I'm sure there's a definite link between their insane sexual "morality" and those pervertions. Keep something buried long enough, and it will rot. Furthermore, the commandment its the power of sin.

So you trust your own experiences more than God's word and counsel through prayer on this matter?

No. How about you, do you trust your interpretation of a translation of a version of the bible more than your experience?

"What does Genesis say about masturbation?"

I referred you to Genesis so you could read about God's plan for proper human sexual relations. If you find masturbation is approved by God there, let me know.

It doesn't mention masturbation. If that means it's not approved, then situps and shovels aren't approved either. And weddings are most definately not approved of.

"What does 1 Cor say about masturbation?"

1Co 6:18 Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.

1Co 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,

1Co 6:20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

Masturbation is sexually immoral because of the lustful thoughts that accompany the action.

In that case the lustful thoughts, not the masturbation, is sinful.

"No. Point being? Do you make love to your wife to gratify your sweet tooth?"

You're the one throwing the ridiculous parallels out there. I'm just responding to them.

Masturbating is selfish because it satisfies a "selfish" urge, if I understand you correctly. Well, wanting a bit of chocolate is also a completely selfish urge. Why is that noe sinful?

Why is is OK to have sex with your wife because you're aroused, but it's not OK to touch?

"Like the "you obviously never read bible verses A and B" stuff, you mean?"

Those aren't personal attacks. Those are observations based upon what you have written. If I have personally attacked you, and you think you can prove it, file a report on me. I never said you never read those verses, show me where I said you never read those verses and I wanna see those exact words in whatever quote you attribute to me.

The fact that you are clueless about this is not surprising. Try Genesis.

-snip-

Did you read the verses in 1 Corinthians? Obviously not.

Masturbation conflicts with a healthy marriage, because when you touch while thinking about having sex with people you're not married to, it's adultery and that is not in keeping with God's plan for marriage.

Here also, the problem would be the lustful thoughts, not the act of masturbation.

Masturbation also robs you of intimacy with your wife.

How!?

God has provided a mate for you to have intimate sexual relations with, you are dishonoring His plan when you satisfy yourself and you are also saying you need something more than what God has provided for you. You're essentially saying, you know better than God what you need.

Does that logic work outside of the marriage bed? If you go out to buy food, aren't you saying you know better than God what you need? If you decide on a wedding date, aren't you also saying that? After all, God may already know the perfect date. If you fail to please your wife, she shouldn't complain in any way, because after all you are what God has given her...

Either you've turned your life over to God or you haven't. I really don't see a middle ground here.

Jesus IS my life. I can't "turn it over" to him

Does God change? The line of thinking you're putting forth here seems to be "God's plan for your life is not necessarily God's plan for my life".

Absolutely. For example, Peter was sent to the jews, but God had a different plan for Paul.

If that's true, then why should God's plan of salvation through repentence of sin and faith in Jesus Christ, then apply to everyone?

Because all have sinned and fallen short etc.

How do we determine which parts of God's plan apply to us and which don't?

Apart from saving us all, God doesn't have some sort of grand scheme that all are supposed to follow. Rather, Christ is supposed to BE our very lives. For some, that means giving up on alcohol for a while or on meat for a year, or to travel to India, or to pray a lot or to marry or not to marry. You don't figure that stuff out by dechipering the bible, but rathe by knowing Christ intimately.

Actually Christ is God in the flesh. If you don't want or need that, why do you call yourself a Christian? Actually, I just looked what you've chosen to reveal about yourself on your stats page up above, and I can't see anything in there that says you're a Christian.

According to the definitions of CF I'm a christian. According to a lot of people, I'm not. According to myself, I'm just saved/a child of God. I'll wear the "christian" badge whenever I see fit. My mum, for example, would have a hard time understanding what I mean by being saved without liking to call myself a christian. So as far as she's concerned, I AM a christian (according to how she defines the word).

By the way, the reason I don't have a denominational or faith icon is that I'd rather not be judged after that sort of thing, but rather on what I write.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Anyway, here's a fact, not a presumption: I have masturbated completely apart from fantasies.

So, a mindless activity, then? A man needs his mind to be able to even start the behaviour. Stop pulling our leg. (No pun intended.)

How does your self-centered gratification glorify God? We are to glorify Him in all we do.

 

[Floatingaxe]

God blesses those who patiently endure testing and temptation. Afterward they will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him. And remember, when you are being tempted, do not say, “God is tempting me.” God is never tempted to do wrong, and he never tempts anyone else. Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death.

How do you think God feels when He sees you bypassing what He has given you, namely your wife (whom you don't bother to make your lawful wife), in favour of your own self?

Seems to me you set yourself up as knowing more about what you "need" than God does. That, my friend, holo, is idolatry.

 

[Zecryphon]

Yes. Anyway, here's a fact, not a presumption: I have masturbated completely apart from fantasies. So it is indeed possible. And from what I hear, women use fantasies to a much lesser degree than men.

Yes, marriage is more important than commitment, it seems

That's another debate though.

I've seen what all the shame and repression can do to people. I've seen pervertion grow out of it - just look at the pedophilia scandals in the catholic church. I'm sure there's a definite link between their insane sexual "morality" and those pervertions. Keep something buried long enough, and it will rot. Furthermore, the commandment its the power of sin.

No. How about you, do you trust your interpretation of a translation of a version of the bible more than your experience?

It doesn't mention masturbation. If that means it's not approved, then situps and shovels aren't approved either. And weddings are most definately not approved of.

In that case the lustful thoughts, not the masturbation, is sinful.

Masturbating is selfish because it satisfies a "selfish" urge, if I understand you correctly. Well, wanting a bit of chocolate is also a completely selfish urge. Why is that noe sinful?

Why is is OK to have sex with your wife because you're aroused, but it's not OK to touch?



Here also, the problem would be the lustful thoughts, not the act of masturbation.

How!?

Does that logic work outside of the marriage bed? If you go out to buy food, aren't you saying you know better than God what you need? If you decide on a wedding date, aren't you also saying that? After all, God may already know the perfect date. If you fail to please your wife, she shouldn't complain in any way, because after all you are what God has given her...

Jesus IS my life. I can't "turn it over" to him

Absolutely. For example, Peter was sent to the jews, but God had a different plan for Paul.

Because all have sinned and fallen short etc.

Apart from saving us all, God doesn't have some sort of grand scheme that all are supposed to follow. Rather, Christ is supposed to BE our very lives. For some, that means giving up on alcohol for a while or on meat for a year, or to travel to India, or to pray a lot or to marry or not to marry. You don't figure that stuff out by dechipering the bible, but rathe by knowing Christ intimately.

According to the definitions of CF I'm a christian. According to a lot of people, I'm not. According to myself, I'm just saved/a child of God. I'll wear the "christian" badge whenever I see fit. My mum, for example, would have a hard time understanding what I mean by being saved without liking to call myself a christian. So as far as she's concerned, I AM a christian (according to how she defines the word).

By the way, the reason I don't have a denominational or faith icon is that I'd rather not be judged after that sort of thing, but rather on what I write.

"I've seen what all the shame and repression can do to people. I've seen pervertion grow out of it - just look at the pedophilia scandals in the catholic church."

Isn't that issue more directly related to the self-imposed ban on marriage that was instituted by the church itself rather than on masturbation being a sin?

"I'm sure there's a definite link between their insane sexual "morality" and those pervertions."

You forget that much of the church's position on sexual morality comes from God and of course tradition too.

"Keep something buried long enough, and it will rot. Furthermore, the commandment its the power of sin."

huh?

"No. How about you, do you trust your interpretation of a translation of a version of the bible more than your experience?"

I trust what God reveals to me through His written word and prayer. I trust those experiences rather than what the world tells me is okay.

"It doesn't mention masturbation. If that means it's not approved, then situps and shovels aren't approved either. And weddings are most definately not approved of."

So you're going to make the argument from silence then? Since masturbation isn't mentioned, it's not a sin? Okay.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
"What does 1 Cor say about masturbation?"

1Co 6:18 Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.

1Co 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,

1Co 6:20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

Masturbation is sexually immoral because of the lustful thoughts that accompany the action.

"In that case the lustful thoughts, not the masturbation, is sinful."

Oh okay.


"Masturbating is selfish because it satisfies a "selfish" urge, if I understand you correctly. Well, wanting a bit of chocolate is also a completely selfish urge. Why is that noe sinful?"

It's obvious you see nothing wrong with your behavior in this area, and these parallel examples you keep throwing out there do nothing to further the conversation and you haven't even offered a defense from scripture for your position. So I see no point in continuing the conversation. Nice talking to you as always.

 

[Zecryphon]

So, a mindless activity, then? A man needs his mind to be able to even start the behaviour. Stop pulling our leg. (No pun intended.)

How does your self-centered gratification glorify God? We are to glorify Him in all we do.

It's not our leg he's pullling. Pun intended. LOL

 

[Gukkor]

It's not our leg he's pullling. Pun intended. LOL

LOL. Well, we may not agree on this issue, but I certainly can't say you don't have a sense of humor.

 

[Zecryphon]

LOL. Well, we may not agree on this issue, but I certainly can't say you don't have a sense of humor.

This is most certainly true.

 

[holo]

So, a mindless activity, then? A man needs his mind to be able to even start the behaviour.

Well, I just testified that no, you don't necessarily need some sort of fantasy to touch. When children touch, they're not thinking about porn either.

How does your self-centered gratification glorify God? We are to glorify Him in all we do.

How do you glorify God when you're eating a hot dog or combing your hair or relaxing in a chair because you feel like it?

 

[holo]

How do you think God feels when He sees you bypassing what He has given you, namely your wife

How am I bypassing her by masturbating? If she's not even here, how am I bypassing her?

Do you have a husband? Does he ever rub your back? Feels nice, doesn't it? So how come you scratch your own back sometimes? Why are you bypassing God's gift?

Seems to me you set yourself up as knowing more about what you "need" than God does. That, my friend, holo, is idolatry.

I don't "need" masturbation. You don't "need" candy either. You still enjoy it though, don't you?

 

[holo]

"I've seen what all the shame and repression can do to people. I've seen pervertion grow out of it - just look at the pedophilia scandals in the catholic church."

Isn't that issue more directly related to the self-imposed ban on marriage that was instituted by the church itself rather than on masturbation being a sin?

I don't think so. The children aren't replacements for wives, but for sexual partners. The catholic church keeps sexuality locked up in a dark and humid cellar.

"I'm sure there's a definite link between their insane sexual "morality" and those pervertions."

You forget that much of the church's position on sexual morality comes from God and of course tradition too.

Their rules against marriage and against having sex for pleasure, against contraception and against masurbation does NOT come from God. One quite likely source is the form of gnosticism that held all "earthly/fleshly" things to be sinful in and of itself.

"Keep something buried long enough, and it will rot. Furthermore, the commandment its the power of sin."

huh?

I see it all the time. People from strict religioius backgrounds who finally meet the world. Alcohol, for example. It has been such a taboo that when they finally try it out, they have no idea how to handle it, and they mess up. There's a lot of junkies from christian homes around here. Same with sexuality. People struggle their entire marriage, because their whole life, sex was something wicked, something selfish and lustful and illegal and dangerous, but once they got married, it's suddenly supposed to be the most beautiful and natural thing in the world. But our hearts and minds can't keep up with that sort of insanity. You can't hate something for like, 20 year, and then, in a matter of one day, see it in a completely different light. I know more than I would like to know about people's sordid sex lives. So full of shame and guilt and perversion, because it was never allowed to be the natural thing that it is.

I trust what God reveals to me through His written word and prayer. I trust those experiences rather than what the world tells me is okay.

Good. You wouldn't allow me to impose my personal conviction on you, and vice versa.
You are convinced that masturbtion is sinful, so by all means, don't touch. But don't tell ME what to do based on your personal conviction. I can drink beer freely and with a clear conscience. If you can't, don't.

So you're going to make the argument from silence then? Since masturbation isn't mentioned, it's not a sin? Okay.

Actually, YOU made the argument that since it's NOT mentioned, it must be sinful.

It's obvious you see nothing wrong with your behavior in this area, and these parallel examples you keep throwing out there do nothing to further the conversation

Why don't you tell me what's the real difference between satisfying th urge to touch and the urge to scratch your back or gratifying yourself in some other way?

and you haven't even offered a defense from scripture for your position

What are you looking for? Some verse that states "thou shalt be allowed to touch yourself"? Do you need "defense from scripture" for other things, too? Like driving a car or how long a church service should last, or how many jelly beans you can eat, or how to exercise?

 

[Zecryphon]

I don't think so. The children aren't replacements for wives, but for sexual partners. The catholic church keeps sexuality locked up in a dark and humid cellar.

Their rules against marriage and against having sex for pleasure, against contraception and against masurbation does NOT come from God. One quite likely source is the form of gnosticism that held all "earthly/fleshly" things to be sinful in and of itself.

I see it all the time. People from strict religioius backgrounds who finally meet the world. Alcohol, for example. It has been such a taboo that when they finally try it out, they have no idea how to handle it, and they mess up. There's a lot of junkies from christian homes around here. Same with sexuality. People struggle their entire marriage, because their whole life, sex was something wicked, something selfish and lustful and illegal and dangerous, but once they got married, it's suddenly supposed to be the most beautiful and natural thing in the world. But our hearts and minds can't keep up with that sort of insanity. You can't hate something for like, 20 year, and then, in a matter of one day, see it in a completely different light. I know more than I would like to know about people's sordid sex lives. So full of shame and guilt and perversion, because it was never allowed to be the natural thing that it is.

Good. You wouldn't allow me to impose my personal conviction on you, and vice versa.
You are convinced that masturbtion is sinful, so by all means, don't touch. But don't tell ME what to do based on your personal conviction. I can drink beer freely and with a clear conscience. If you can't, don't.

Actually, YOU made the argument that since it's NOT mentioned, it must be sinful.

Why don't you tell me what's the real difference between satisfying th urge to touch and the urge to scratch your back or gratifying yourself in some other way?

What are you looking for? Some verse that states "thou shalt be allowed to touch yourself"? Do you need "defense from scripture" for other things, too? Like driving a car or how long a church service should last, or how many jelly beans you can eat, or how to exercise?

"Actually, YOU made the argument that since it's NOT mentioned, it must be sinful."

Actually, no. I've told you why it's a sin and that was not my rationale. Got any other false witness you'd care to bear about me?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
It's obvious you see nothing wrong with your behavior in this area, and these parallel examples you keep throwing out there do nothing to further the conversation

"Why don't you tell me what's the real difference between satisfying th urge to touch and the urge to scratch your back or gratifying yourself in some other way?"

What difference would it make? You don't care what other people or God have to say, you just do what you want and think because you're a Christian it's all good.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
and you haven't even offered a defense from scripture for your position

"What are you looking for? Some verse that states "thou shalt be allowed to touch yourself"? Do you need "defense from scripture" for other things, too? Like driving a car or how long a church service should last, or how many jelly beans you can eat, or how to exercise?"

God gave us freewill to decide minor things like that. He's not a micromanager, who's going to dictate every area of our lives. But the big things, like sex, He has given us rules for. If you don't want to follow His rules in this area, that's your choice. Sex is a gift from God and as such it should be respected by us and not abused by us. You say Jesus is your life, but from your posts it's clear that you are living for yourself and not for Him.

 

[rosiecotton]

God gave us freewill to decide minor things like that. He's not a micromanager, who's going to dictate every area of our lives. But the big things, like sex, He has given us rules for. If you don't want to follow His rules in this area, that's your choice. Sex is a gift from God and as such it should be respected by us and not abused by us. You say Jesus is your life, but from your posts it's clear that you are living for yourself and not for Him.[/quote]

I haven't really been in on the discussion, but wanted to just add a couple thoughts.
First off, it's funny how in the Bible (I think it's Leviticus??) God gave soooo many things sexually that we are not to do. There is at least one whole chapter that lists all these things that are wrong sexually. And masturbation is never listed.
And we must have different ways of reading holo's posts. Because by what I read and see he is living his life for Christ. I think he understands Jesus' way of living a lot more than many Christians I know.

 

[Zecryphon]

God gave us freewill to decide minor things like that. He's not a micromanager, who's going to dictate every area of our lives. But the big things, like sex, He has given us rules for. If you don't want to follow His rules in this area, that's your choice. Sex is a gift from God and as such it should be respected by us and not abused by us. You say Jesus is your life, but from your posts it's clear that you are living for yourself and not for Him.

I haven't really been in on the discussion, but wanted to just add a couple thoughts.
First off, it's funny how in the Bible (I think it's Leviticus??) God gave soooo many things sexually that we are not to do. There is at least one whole chapter that lists all these things that are wrong sexually. And masturbation is never listed.
And we must have different ways of reading holo's posts. Because by what I read and see he is living his life for Christ. I think he understands Jesus' way of living a lot more than many Christians I know.[/quote]
"I haven't really been in on the discussion, but wanted to just add a couple thoughts.
First off, it's funny how in the Bible (I think it's Leviticus??) God gave soooo many things sexually that we are not to do. There is at least one whole chapter that lists all these things that are wrong sexually. And masturbation is never listed."

Okay, what I've been taught to do in situations where an activity is questionable, where it's not listed as an outright sin, is to find other verses that deal with similar situations and see what God has to say about those. In this case, I would look for other verses that deal with lust, since lust and masturbation tend to go hand in hand. Lustful thoughts lead to masturbation, in my opinion. Masturbation doesn't necessarily lead to lustful thoughts. So, I would then go through my concordance and find all the verses that address lust. Read them, study them and pray for guidance and wisdom from the Holy Spirit concerning that issue and come to a conclusion about how God feels about that issue, whether or not it is a sin. To me, even if you set aside the lustful thoughts being adultery issue, and go with the rationale of "I don't have lustful thoughts while masturbating" to me you're still committing adultery, because you're still having sex with someone who is not your wife.

"And we must have different ways of reading holo's posts. Because by what I read and see he is living his life for Christ. I think he understands Jesus' way of living a lot more than many Christians I know."

We must indeed have different ways of reading his posts.

 

[holo]

"Actually, YOU made the argument that since it's NOT mentioned, it must be sinful."

Actually, no. I've told you why it's a sin and that was not my rationale. Got any other false witness you'd care to bear about me?

Exactly what IS your rationale as to why masturbation is sinful based on Genesis?

What difference would it make? You don't care what other people or God have to say

Yeah...

God gave us freewill to decide minor things like that. He's not a micromanager, who's going to dictate every area of our lives. But the big things, like sex, He has given us rules for.

What exactly are those rules, and where are they written?

You say Jesus is your life, but from your posts it's clear that you are living for yourself and not for Him.