Is touching yourself a sin? (2)

[Zecryphon]

Yea... um, no.

YOU try being a 12 year old boy with all kinds of crazy things going on in your head and body and the only way to keep the NONSTOP thoughts about girls from driving you insane is "righty". Then having someone shame you into thinking its wrong, so you beat yourself up (not literally) for being evil through your teenage years which are hard enough as it is. That kind of thing can carry over into intimacy with another in the future, leading to the forementioned sexual dysfuntion and repression (ie nudity = sexuality)

Its kept me from jumping into bed with someone on more than one occasion. Its not sin. If so then God can understand and forgive. Either way I don't lose sleep over it/

"YOU try being a 12 year old boy with all kinds of crazy things going on in your head and body and the only way to keep the NONSTOP thoughts about girls from driving you insane is "righty"."

I'm speaking as someone who was once 12 year-old boy with those kinds of thoughts and this statement by you is nonsense. The masturbation doesn't stop the thoughts. You have the thoughts before, during and probably a few hours after your last session. Masturbation is a consequence of your thoughts, not the source of your thoughts. The sources of your thoughts are numerous. Change your thinking and the behavior will go away. In fact, there's a couple of resources for you to check out if you truly want to stop your deviant behavior. You can go to xxxchurch.com and you can also buy Every Young Man's Battle by Stephen Arterburn. His books are really good and offer practical solutions to your problem. Things you've probably never even thought of doing. If the problem is largely the internet, get rid of the internet. If you want to win, you have to first step up and fight and give this completely over to God. He is going to be the best resource for helping you conquer this problem.

"Then having someone shame you into thinking its wrong,"

No one shames you. If you feel shame about it, it's because of your conscience. Your conscience is God's law written on your heart. Conscience means "with knowledge". Con means with and science means knowledge. It is with knowledge that you know masturbation is wrong. You feel guilty afterwards, not because of something someone has told you, but a feeling deep within yourself.

"so you beat yourself up (not literally) for being evil through your teenage years which are hard enough as it is."

Beating yourself up is another way of describing masturbation or self-abuse, I agree with you there. LOL I mean just think about all the slang phrases for the act itself particularly in reference to boys who do it. Not one of them sound nice. The words "beating" and "choking" leap to mind from a couple phrases.

"That kind of thing can carry over into intimacy with another in the future, leading to the forementioned sexual dysfuntion and repression (ie nudity = sexuality)"

What about the sexual dysfunction you're already engaging in? Is that okay because it makes you feel good? You are turning women that you've seen, somewhere, whether it be movies, tv, magazines, internet etc. into objects for your own selfish, guilty pleausres. They're stored in your mind and you can have them whenever you want, wtihout their permission, to use as you see fit. That mentality can also be carried into your adult life and you can treat women horribly based upon that, because that's what you did to them in your formative years. It goes both ways.

"Its kept me from jumping into bed with someone on more than one occasion. Its not sin."

Jesus disagrees with you in Matthew 5:27-28. So someone is wrong here. You or Jesus. Which one is wrong?

"If so then God can understand and forgive."

Why should He forgive you? You're not sorry about your actions or showing any signs of remorse or repentance? He's not gonna let you off the hook because "boys will be boys".

"Either way I don't lose sleep over it/"

Right, you're not sorry for your actions and therefore God has no reason to forgive you for it.

 

[Cole2026]

Masturbation, in and of itself, is not a sin. And Onan spilling his seed in Genesis is not masturbation; God killed him because he did not follow God's will and continue the bloodline.

However, masturbation is associated with lust. And when one lusts for a woman, he commits adultery in his heart (Matthew 5:27-28, as Zecryphon said above).

 

[Gukkor]

Masturbation, in and of itself, is not a sin. And Onan spilling his seed in Genesis is not masturbation; God killed him because he did not follow God's will and continue the bloodline.

However, masturbation can be associated with lust. And when one lusts for a woman, he commits adultery in his heart (Matthew 5:27-28, as Zecryphon said above).

Fixed. Otherwise, I completely agree.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Quote:
However, masturbation can be associated with lust. And when one lusts for a woman, he commits adultery in his heart (Matthew 5:27-28, as Zecryphon said above).[/quote]

What do you mean, "can be"? When is it not associated with lustful thoughts? It is a sin that originates with a corrupt thought as does all sin. This sin continues in the mind until fruition.

 

[Gukkor]

Quote:
However, masturbation can be associated with lust. And when one lusts for a woman, he commits adultery in his heart (Matthew 5:27-28, as Zecryphon said above).

What do you mean, "can be"? When is it not associated with lustful thoughts? It is a sin that originates with a corrupt thought as does all sin. This sin continues in the mind until fruition.[/QUOTE]

Masturbation is not associated with lustful thoughts when you do it without having lustful thoughts. It's really that simple. I have no way to prove that, since that would require you to actually know my thoughts with no room for doubt, but I know that at the very least, I can do it without having any thoughts at all, much less lustful ones. I don't know, maybe some people can keep the two seperate and others can't. I just don't see why that would be the case.

 

[Floatingaxe]

What do you mean, "can be"? When is it not associated with lustful thoughts? It is a sin that originates with a corrupt thought as does all sin. This sin continues in the mind until fruition.

Masturbation is not associated with lustful thoughts when you do it without having lustful thoughts. It's really that simple. I have no way to prove that, since that would require you to actually know my thoughts with no room for doubt, but I know that at the very least, I can do it without having any thoughts at all, much less lustful ones. I don't know, maybe some people can keep the two seperate and others can't. I just don't see why that would be the case.[/quote]


Yuck. The mind is a terrible thing to waste.

 

[Gukkor]

Masturbation is not associated with lustful thoughts when you do it without having lustful thoughts. It's really that simple. I have no way to prove that, since that would require you to actually know my thoughts with no room for doubt, but I know that at the very least, I can do it without having any thoughts at all, much less lustful ones. I don't know, maybe some people can keep the two seperate and others can't. I just don't see why that would be the case.

Yuck. The mind is a terrible thing to waste. [/QUOTE]

With respect, milady, I can't help but get the feeling that you're judging me. I imagine things would be quite unpleasant if I were to start judging you in return. Of course, that is not something I would ever seek to do. After all, we may disagree on certain issues, but it is God's job to judge us, no?

 

[Floatingaxe]

It is a Christian's job to judge for righteousness. We cannot judge someone who is unsaved, for they know no better, but a Christian needs to reprove another believer when they see sin.

When someone refuses to acknowledge what they are doing is a sin, then...well...expect to be reproved.

Many Christians need to come up higher. Come up higher, friend.

 

[Nurbz]

Ok if lustful thoughts are the same as the physical action, then I lost my virginity to a married woman when I was 8 or 9, and comitted murder with an angry, but fleeting thought after a fight when I was 12.

So am I an accessory to adultery and a murderer? or are thoughts in moments of passion judged differently than actions?

and in keeping with Matt 5: 27, its better for someone to mutilate and kill themselves to keep from having bad thoughts? or does it conflict with the "Our body is God's temple" passage, where even a tattoo is a sin.

There's so much back and forth and the inability to even go one day without sinning in one form or another, that we can only do our best to do as instructed and not give others a hard time for their stumbling blocks when a lie is equal to murder in God's eyes.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Ok if lustful thoughts are the same as the physical action, then I lost my virginity to a married woman when I was 8 or 9, and comitted murder with an angry, but fleeting thought after a fight when I was 12.

So am I an accessory to adultery and a murderer? or are thoughts in moments of passion judged differently than actions?

and in keeping with Matt 5: 27, its better for someone to mutilate and kill themselves to keep from having bad thoughts? or does it conflict with the "Our body is God's temple" passage, where even a tattoo is a sin.

There's so much back and forth and the inability to even go one day without sinning in one form or another, that we can only do our best to do as instructed and not give others a hard time for their stumbling blocks when a lie is equal to murder in God's eyes.

The thought is as good as the deed in God's view. Hatred is murder to Him and lust is fornicating. We cannot get around our corrupt minds. We will be judged for these sins if we do not repent and renounce.

The Holy Spirit is grieved by deliberate sinning.

 

[wmc1982]

Only if you do it more than 3 times a day.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Only if you do it more than 3 times a day.

OY!!!! That's good for a swoon!

 

[holo]

What about the sexual dysfunction you're already engaging in?

Oh my GOD.

Are my eyes deceiving me, or are you actually referring to masturbation as a sexual dysfunction?

And I thought I didn't have any more hope to lose in christianity...

 

[Zecryphon]

Oh my GOD.

Are my eyes deceiving me, or are you actually referring to masturbation as a sexual dysfunction?

And I thought I didn't have any more hope to lose in christianity...

Nice blasphemy there Holo! My post was quite clear. It is not the masturbation that was the sexual dysfunction but the poster's use of women as objects. The masturbation is the sin. Since all your hope in Christianity is now gone, which religion will you try your hand at next?

 

[Zecryphon]

Yuck. The mind is a terrible thing to waste.

With respect, milady, I can't help but get the feeling that you're judging me. I imagine things would be quite unpleasant if I were to start judging you in return. Of course, that is not something I would ever seek to do. After all, we may disagree on certain issues, but it is God's job to judge us, no?[/QUOTE]
I believe 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 tells us that we can judge those inside the church. So knock yourselves out and have yourself a nice litte judge fest. LOL

 

[holo]

Nice blasphemy there Holo!

No blasphemy. I actually tend to call out for my God when I'm shocked/scared.

My post was quite clear. It is not the masturbation that was the sexual dysfunction but the poster's use of women as objects.

In that case I misunderstood you, thankfully.

The masturbation is the sin.

But unless I misunderstand this too, I must say you are extremely way off here. There is not one sinful or unhealthy thing about masturbation. The ability to touch is a gift from God.

Since all your hope in Christianity is now gone, which religion will you try your hand at next?

None. I'll stick with Jesus though.

 

[Zecryphon]

No blasphemy. I actually tend to call out for my God when I'm shocked/scared.

In that case I misunderstood you, thankfully.

But unless I misunderstand this too, I must say you are extremely way off here. There is not one sinful or unhealthy thing about masturbation. The ability to touch is a gift from God.

None. I'll stick with Jesus though.

"No blasphemy. I actually tend to call out for my God when I'm shocked/scared."

Yeah instead of using an expression like "oh man!" or something else, you have chosen to use the perfect and holy name of God to express shock and surprise. That's blasphemy. Rationalize it away however you like, but the fact remains. You're gonna wanna knock that off as what you did is technically a violation of the new rules of the forum. You can go look them up for yourself.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
My post was quite clear. It is not the masturbation that was the sexual dysfunction but the poster's use of women as objects.

In that case I misunderstood you, thankfully.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
The masturbation is the sin.

"But unless I misunderstand this too, I must say you are extremely way off here. There is not one sinful or unhealthy thing about masturbation. The ability to touch is a gift from God."

Of course you would say I'm way off, there's no real shock here. I have not met or talked to one person that masturbates without fantasizing. No one does it just to relieve stress, there are other activities that do that. Meditation is better than masturbation for that one. People that touch always have fantasies that involve other women or men depending on your gender and or orientation. The poster in question is using women as objects for his own selfish desires. That's objectification of women and by using women in this way he does not honor God's intention for human sexual relations.

He is also not developing a healthy view of women. People who use women in this way will go out into the real world and treat women like objects, in some fashion, because that's really what they see them as. Masturbation is a sin because it's not how God intended humans to enjoy sex. The Bible is clear that two humans are to be involved in the act of sex, not just one. It's called "self abuse" for a reason. Masturbation is not something glorious shared by two people with God's blessing, but a solo act of greed and selfishness. It's also fueled by adulterous thoughts. The people you're fantasizing about are not your husband or wife. You're putting your needs above God's desires. It's a sin. It's evidence that a person has not truly died to themselves and still live for themselves as opposed to living for God. Since you claim to have died to yourself and live only for God, you should be in agreement with me on this. See 1 Corinthians 6:12-20 for clarification.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
Since all your hope in Christianity is now gone, which religion will you try your hand at next?

"None. I'll stick with Jesus though."

Why? I've dahsed all your hope for Christianity. There's nothing left for you here. Best to be moving on.

 

[Zecryphon]

What do you mean, "can be"? When is it not associated with lustful thoughts? It is a sin that originates with a corrupt thought as does all sin. This sin continues in the mind until fruition.

Masturbation is not associated with lustful thoughts when you do it without having lustful thoughts. It's really that simple. I have no way to prove that, since that would require you to actually know my thoughts with no room for doubt, but I know that at the very least, I can do it without having any thoughts at all, much less lustful ones. I don't know, maybe some people can keep the two seperate and others can't. I just don't see why that would be the case.[/QUOTE]
"Masturbation is not associated with lustful thoughts when you do it without having lustful thoughts."

If lustful thoughts are not the root cause of masturbation, what then drives a person to touch in the first place?

 

[Zecryphon]

Ok if lustful thoughts are the same as the physical action, then I lost my virginity to a married woman when I was 8 or 9, and comitted murder with an angry, but fleeting thought after a fight when I was 12.

So am I an accessory to adultery and a murderer? or are thoughts in moments of passion judged differently than actions?

and in keeping with Matt 5: 27, its better for someone to mutilate and kill themselves to keep from having bad thoughts? or does it conflict with the "Our body is God's temple" passage, where even a tattoo is a sin.

There's so much back and forth and the inability to even go one day without sinning in one form or another, that we can only do our best to do as instructed and not give others a hard time for their stumbling blocks when a lie is equal to murder in God's eyes.

"Ok if lustful thoughts are the same as the physical action, then I lost my virginity to a married woman when I was 8 or 9, and comitted murder with an angry, but fleeting thought after a fight when I was 12."

So, by your own admission you're an adulterous murderer.

"So am I an accessory to adultery and a murderer?"

I wouldn't say you're an accessory. I'd say you are both an adulterer and a murderer. Or in other words, you are a sinner.

"or are thoughts in moments of passion judged differently than actions?"

I don't see why they would be. They're still violations of the law of God.

"and in keeping with Matt 5: 27, its better for someone to mutilate and kill themselves to keep from having bad thoughts?"

Here is Matthew 5:27 ESV:

Mat 5:27"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.'

How does your question relate to that passage? I see nothing in there about mutilation or killing of oneself.

"or does it conflict with the "Our body is God's temple" passage, where even a tattoo is a sin."

Who taught you that simply getting a tattoo was a violation of the passage you're referring to from 1 Corinthians? The only passage I see that could be used as a condemnation against tattoos is found in Leviticus 19:28 and I don't see that command as applying to Christians today. It seems to me that it was given to the Israelites to protect them from the pagan practices that were rampant all around them. The verse before deals with the proper way to wear your hair and beard. Do you follow that one too?

"There's so much back and forth and the inability to even go one day without sinning in one form or another, that we can only do our best to do as instructed and not give others a hard time for their stumbling blocks when a lie is equal to murder in God's eyes."

I don't see that we're focusing on any one person in particular, but rather focusing on a behavior and it's associated causes and consequences.

 

[holo]

"No blasphemy. I actually tend to call out for my God when I'm shocked/scared."

Yeah instead of using an expression like "oh man!" or something else, you have chosen to use the perfect and holy name of God to express shock and surprise.

Haha! "God" is simply the capitalised version of the old norse/german word "gott" which means deity.

That's blasphemy. Rationalize it away however you like

There's nothing to rationalize away.

I have not met or talked to one person that masturbates without fantasizing.

How many do you usually ask about their masturbating habits?

And what's wrong with fantasizing? Is any fantasy sinful by default? I think this says more about your own fantasies than anybody elses.

The poster in question is using women as objects for his own selfish desires.

But the "poster in question" doesn't equal any person who may touch.

He is also not developing a healthy view of women.

I agree that porn can poison people's ideas of sexuality, their bodies etc. But masturbation in itself does the opposite. It's a natural and healthy thing that helps people get to know themselves. Having sex with someone, it's tremendously helpful that they both know their own bodies and what works for them. It also does relive stress and it can aid sleep, and it feels good.

Masturbation is a sin because it's not how God intended humans to enjoy sex. The Bible is clear that two humans are to be involved in the act of sex, not just one.

It does? Where?

It's called "self abuse" for a reason.

I'm sure it does, but the bible doesn't call it that. God doesn't call it that. How on earth is mastubation abuse of oneself!?

Masturbation is not something glorious shared by two people with God's blessing, but a solo act of greed and selfishness.

Come on... really. What makes scratching your back different?

It's also fueled by adulterous thoughts.

For you, yes, I'm sure that's the case.

The people you're fantasizing about are not your husband or wife.

They're not?

You're putting your needs above God's desires.

I don't exactly see the conflict here... your "need" is to do something about that 100% natural, human, God-designed erection, while God on the other hand would that you rather not, because... umm, because of what exactly?

It's a sin. It's evidence that a person has not truly died to themselves and still live for themselves as opposed to living for God. Since you claim to have died to yourself and live only for God, you should be in agreement with me on this. See 1 Corinthians 6:12-20 for clarification.

Actually, you'd be the one refusing to die to self here, since you subject yourself to all these "touch not"s and abuse your body and twist sexuality and bodily functions into something weird and unnatural.

Why? I've dahsed all your hope for Christianity. There's nothing left for you here. Best to be moving on.

Jesus doesn't equal christianity.