Is touching yourself a sin? (2)

[Floatingaxe]

sexually pleasing one's self to feel happy is choosing self-gratification/lusts of the flesh over God

Yep.

 

[Nadiine]

sexually pleasing one's self to feel happy is choosing self-gratification/lusts of the flesh over God

K, now while I'm not arguing against masturbation being sin, I think this example could have a loophole -

That would mean that anything we do for "fun" or pleasure is putting that over God. It has to first be established that this form of pleasure/self gratification of a natural sexual urge is sin.
Anyone reading this assertion who doesn't believe it's sin would take issue to it being "over" God if it isn't wrong to do.

Using this example, I could say that even tho eating a large piece of cheesecake as a treat to myself, fulfilling my desire for fattening, tastey food that isn't HEALTHY for me, I'm harming my temple or being gluttonous
(ie. 26g of fat + high cholesterol count + processed sugar) by eating it, therefore, putting the cheesecake over God.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be irritating - I'm not in favor of masturbation either - just that I think people could find a loophole in the assertion.

God bless (& sorry)!!

 

[holo]

"That's not what the bible says though. The bible says that the old man DIED."

The old man who is a slave to sin has died, that's true, but where does it say you have lost your old nature and it is no longer a part of you?

If the old man died, you did lose him. How could you NOT lose the old nature? It was crucified with Christ. And the NEW nature is born of God.

"Your problems isn't who you are, but who you THINK you are."

Oh, so it's all in my head? So what I believe about myself is what's true?

What you believe about yourself determines how you behave. If you believe you are a sinner, you will act like a sinner.

"A person can't have two natures. It doesn't make any sense, it's impossible."

Nothing is impossible with God.

True. But God didn't choose to give you a SECOND nature, He chose to give you a NEW nature.

Paul directly addresses this conflict in Romans.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, Rom 7:23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

Yes, we are flesh as well as spirit. But flesh and spirit are two aspects of what we are, not two different natures.

Your dog doesn't have two natures just because he has both a body and a personality.

"You are born again. Which part of you is born again? It's not your mind, and it's not your flesh. So it must be your spirit. The bible calls you a new creation."

It's all of you that's born again, a new mind, a new heart with new desires and new nature that wishes to do good, but you still retain the old Adamic nature in your flesh.

The Adamic nature wasn't (in) your flesh, but (in) your spirit. We WERE in Adam, now we ARE in Christ.

The second birth does not erase the defects obtained in the first

If so it's not a second birth, but rather just some sort of makeover.

 

[holo]

sexually pleasing one's self to feel happy is choosing self-gratification/lusts of the flesh over God

By that rationale, it would be sin to have sex with your wife for any other reason than pleasing her. Furthermore, if she denied you sex, you would have no right to feel bad about it - you're not supposed to please yourself, you know...

 

[Zecryphon]

K, now while I'm not arguing against masturbation being sin, I think this example could have a loophole -

That would mean that anything we do for "fun" or pleasure is putting that over God. It has to first be established that this form of pleasure/self gratification of a natural sexual urge is sin.
Anyone reading this assertion who doesn't believe it's sin would take issue to it being "over" God if it isn't wrong to do.

Using this example, I could say that even tho eating a large piece of cheesecake as a treat to myself, fulfilling my desire for fattening, tastey food that isn't HEALTHY for me, I'm harming my temple or being gluttonous
(ie. 26g of fat + high cholesterol count + processed sugar) by eating it, therefore, putting the cheesecake over God.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be irritating - I'm not in favor of masturbation either - just that I think people could find a loophole in the assertion.

God bless (& sorry)!!

How about this Nadiine, anything that we love or value more than God is a sin, because according to the first commandment we are to love God above all things. However much we may love cheesecake, we are to appear to hate it when we compare our love of cheesecake with our love for God. So if we just gush enthusiasm and praise for how tasty cheesecake is, that should look like hatred in comparison to our love for God.

 

[Zecryphon]

If the old man died, you did lose him. How could you NOT lose the old nature? It was crucified with Christ. And the NEW nature is born of God.

What you believe about yourself determines how you behave. If you believe you are a sinner, you will act like a sinner.

True. But God didn't choose to give you a SECOND nature, He chose to give you a NEW nature.

Yes, we are flesh as well as spirit. But flesh and spirit are two aspects of what we are, not two different natures.

Your dog doesn't have two natures just because he has both a body and a personality.

The Adamic nature wasn't (in) your flesh, but (in) your spirit. We WERE in Adam, now we ARE in Christ.

If so it's not a second birth, but rather just some sort of makeover.

"If the old man died, you did lose him. How could you NOT lose the old nature? It was crucified with Christ. And the NEW nature is born of God."

I asked you for scriptural support for your assertions, I see you have none. Where is it written that the old nature goes away or that you lose it? On the last day, when we are raised to life in incorruptible bodies, then we will be freed from the old Adamic nature, not before.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
"Your problems isn't who you are, but who you THINK you are."

Oh, so it's all in my head? So what I believe about myself is what's true?

"What you believe about yourself determines how you behave. If you believe you are a sinner, you will act like a sinner."

Wrong, what I believe to be right and wrong plays a role in how I behave. My nature dictates how I behave. We sin, because of our sinful nature that we are born with. We do good because of the new nature we got at the rebirth, which is only available through Christ. Daily we have a choice to make between doing what we know is right and what we know is wrong. If the old Adamic nature were gone, there would be no conflict and no other alternative than doing that which is good. Your continued sin is proof that you have a dual nature.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
"A person can't have two natures. It doesn't make any sense, it's impossible."

Nothing is impossible with God.

"True. But God didn't choose to give you a SECOND nature, He chose to give you a NEW nature."

New in the sense of it being foreign to us, because before this we only had the old Adamic nature. That is still present in your flesh and will be there until you are raised to new life in Christ on the last day.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
Paul directly addresses this conflict in Romans.

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, Rom 7:23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

"Yes, we are flesh as well as spirit. But flesh and spirit are two aspects of what we are, not two different natures."

The old Adamic nature resides in your flesh, as long as you have your flesh and live in that shell, you retain that nature.


"Your dog doesn't have two natures just because he has both a body and a personality."

You don't get it, research this on your own, I've told you all I can.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
"You are born again. Which part of you is born again? It's not your mind, and it's not your flesh. So it must be your spirit. The bible calls you a new creation."

It's all of you that's born again, a new mind, a new heart with new desires and new nature that wishes to do good, but you still retain the old Adamic nature in your flesh.

"The Adamic nature wasn't (in) your flesh, but (in) your spirit. We WERE in Adam, now we ARE in Christ."

You still have all the things from Adam though. Your failure to comprehend the reality of being dual natured is not my problem and does not mean that what I am saying here is wrong.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
The second birth does not erase the defects obtained in the first

"If so it's not a second birth, but rather just some sort of makeover."

That's your conclusion not mine and is not what scripture teaches.

 

[holo]

"If the old man died, you did lose him. How could you NOT lose the old nature? It was crucified with Christ. And the NEW nature is born of God."

I asked you for scriptural support for your assertions, I see you have none. Where is it written that the old nature goes away or that you lose it?

1 Corinthians 5:7
Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace

Romans 6:2
By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

Romans 6:8
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

Colossians 2:20
Since you died with Christ

Colossians 3:3
For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

2 Timothy 2:11
Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

On the last day, when we are raised to life in incorruptible bodies, then we will be freed from the old Adamic nature, not before.

The bible says we are already no longer in Adam and already in Christ. Sin still dwells in our flesh, though - it's not our nature, but we can choose to follow sin if we want. When we were sinners by nature, we didn't really have a choice.

"What you believe about yourself determines how you behave. If you believe you are a sinner, you will act like a sinner."

Wrong, what I believe to be right and wrong plays a role in how I behave. My nature dictates how I behave.

The prodigal son's nature didn't dictate his behaviour. He thought he was an unworthy low-life, and therefore he acted like one. But in reality, he was still his father's son and heir. He just needed to learn that.

We sin, because of our sinful nature that we are born with. We do good because of the new nature we got at the rebirth, which is only available through Christ. Daily we have a choice to make between doing what we know is right and what we know is wrong. If the old Adamic nature were gone, there would be no conflict and no other alternative than doing that which is good. Your continued sin is proof that you have a dual nature.

No, it's proof that sin still follows the flesh. The fact that I want to do good, that my inner man "delights in God's law," means that my nature is actually to do good.

New in the sense of it being foreign to us, because before this we only had the old Adamic nature.

But that's not what the bible says. The bible says the old man DIED. Not that we got an additional nature.

The old Adamic nature resides in your flesh, as long as you have your flesh and live in that shell, you retain that nature.

See it from a slighty different angle; your Adamic nature was to follow the sin that dwells in your flesh. Your new nature is to deny the sin that dwells in your flesh. Your new nature is actually DEAD to sin - you just need to realize it and believe it. Just like Peter walked on the water in faith, you can walk all over sin in faith.

You still have all the things from Adam though.

Actually, I have NOTHING from Adam. I have EVERYTHING from Christ

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

I'm disappointed to see so many arguments going on--but on this topic, I think it's more useful to ask what's right with something, rather that what's wrong with it. Does it glorify God? Does it spiritually benefit the self? Does it spiritually benefit others? Not likely. So I would say that this is not a particularly godly activity, although I don't see any scriptural evidence that would call it a sin, in the sense that killing and stealing are sins.

 

[Zecryphon]

1 Corinthians 5:7
Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace

Romans 6:2
By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

Romans 6:8
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

Colossians 2:20
Since you died with Christ

Colossians 3:3
For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

2 Timothy 2:11
Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

The bible says we are already no longer in Adam and already in Christ. Sin still dwells in our flesh, though - it's not our nature, but we can choose to follow sin if we want. When we were sinners by nature, we didn't really have a choice.

The prodigal son's nature didn't dictate his behaviour. He thought he was an unworthy low-life, and therefore he acted like one. But in reality, he was still his father's son and heir. He just needed to learn that.

No, it's proof that sin still follows the flesh. The fact that I want to do good, that my inner man "delights in God's law," means that my nature is actually to do good.

But that's not what the bible says. The bible says the old man DIED. Not that we got an additional nature.

See it from a slighty different angle; your Adamic nature was to follow the sin that dwells in your flesh. Your new nature is to deny the sin that dwells in your flesh. Your new nature is actually DEAD to sin - you just need to realize it and believe it. Just like Peter walked on the water in faith, you can walk all over sin in faith.

Actually, I have NOTHING from Adam. I have EVERYTHING from Christ

"The bible says we are already no longer in Adam and already in Christ. Sin still dwells in our flesh, though - it's not our nature,"
Where does this sin come from if not from the old sinful nature you got at birth from your ultimate earthly father Adam?

"but we can choose to follow sin if we want."

If you had only one nature, the new one in Christ, there is no choice because your new nature is not influenced by sin in any way. Your new nature is the power you have in Christ over sin.

"When we were sinners by nature, we didn't really have a choice."

Right you were a slave to your sinful nature, which does not depart from the flesh when you are born-again. When you are born-again you receive power to overcome sin in Christ, that's not the same as removing the old nature.


"The prodigal son's nature didn't dictate his behaviour."
Yes it did. Where did his desire to live for himself come from? Where did his desire to violate the commandment to honor his mother and father come from? His sinful nature.

"He thought he was an unworthy low-life, and therefore he acted like one."

Wrong, he came to that conclusion after he had demanded his inheritience from his father, squandered it all and was living in a pig-sty.

"No, it's proof that sin still follows the flesh. The fact that I want to do good, that my inner man "delights in God's law,""

Ha! I know for a fact that no part of you delights in God's law, as you have denied you are under God's law repeatedly. Every time God's law is applied to you in any way you say you are dead to it. I don't think you can use this line of reasoning now, when it suits you.

"means that my nature is actually to do good."

It means the new nature you received wants to do good, but we all know that we do not always do the good we want to do, but instead do the bad that we don't want to do. Why is that? If the old nature were completely removed, this could not be possible.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
New in the sense of it being foreign to us, because before this we only had the old Adamic nature.

"But that's not what the bible says. The bible says the old man DIED."

Okay, holo, show me your old man's body. Can't have a death without a body can you? Where is it? Where is your old man buried?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
The old Adamic nature resides in your flesh, as long as you have your flesh and live in that shell, you retain that nature.

"See it from a slighty different angle; your Adamic nature was to follow the sin that dwells in your flesh. Your new nature is to deny the sin that dwells in your flesh. Your new nature is actually DEAD to sin - you just need to realize it and believe it. Just like Peter walked on the water in faith, you can walk all over sin in faith."

Peter doesn't apply here because Peter had not been regenerated by the Holy Spirit yet. That was still to come.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
You still have all the things from Adam though.

"Actually, I have NOTHING from Adam. I have EVERYTHING from Christ "

So when you still commit sin to this day, that sin is coming from Christ who never sinined? That doesn't make sense.

 

[Shiversblood]

Man can only trust the man who practices what he preaches.

 

[holo]

Where does this sin come from if not from the old sinful nature you got at birth from your ultimate earthly father Adam?

Sin comes from the devil. And it lives in the flesh. When I was in Adam I was a slave to sin, I was born into sin. But he who is born of God is NOT born into sin. I have no part of Adam's nature now - I am like Adam was BEFORE he fell. Just like Adam, I too can choose to eat of the wrong tree, I too can choose to listen to satan. But I'm not under the curse that Adam brought upon us.

"but we can choose to follow sin if we want."

If you had only one nature, the new one in Christ, there is no choice because your new nature is not influenced by sin in any way. Your new nature is the power you have in Christ over sin.

My new man, my inner man, my spirit, cannot sin. It is born of God. Rather than merely giving me power over sin, He let me DIE.

"When we were sinners by nature, we didn't really have a choice."

Right you were a slave to your sinful nature, which does not depart from the flesh when you are born-again. When you are born-again you receive power to overcome sin in Christ, that's not the same as removing the old nature.

Sin doesn't depart from the flesh, that's correct.

"The prodigal son's nature didn't dictate his behaviour."
Yes it did. Where did his desire to live for himself come from? Where did his desire to violate the commandment to honor his mother and father come from? His sinful nature.

But that wasn't his nature - his nature was that of being his father's son. He made some bad choices, but his nature and identity was always (and could never become anything other than) a SON. And it was because of his identity that he was immediately welcomed back.

"He thought he was an unworthy low-life, and therefore he acted like one."

Wrong, he came to that conclusion after he had demanded his inheritience from his father, squandered it all and was living in a pig-sty.

Yes, and it was a wrong conclusion. He wasn't unworthy at all.

Ha! I know for a fact that no part of you delights in God's law, as you have denied you are under God's law repeatedly. Every time God's law is applied to you in any way you say you are dead to it.

I have said several times that I agree with Paul that the law is good. That's not the same as being under it though. Swiss laws are brilliant, but that doesn't mean I am under them or should be under them or want to be under them.

The letter is good, but the Spirit is better.

It means the new nature you received wants to do good, but we all know that we do not always do the good we want to do, but instead do the bad that we don't want to do. Why is that? If the old nature were completely removed, this could not be possible.

As Paul says, he finds a "law" in his flesh, that goes against the "law" in his inner man. Paul himself wanted to do GOOD - that was his NATURE. But sin still hung on to his flesh. And that's why he talks so much about being dead - "reckon yourselves dead to sin" and so forth.

"But that's not what the bible says. The bible says the old man DIED."

Okay, holo, show me your old man's body. Can't have a death without a body can you? Where is it? Where is your old man buried?

I have no idea where my old man is buried. All I know is that he was crucified and is dead. We died spiritually, not physically.

Peter doesn't apply here because Peter had not been regenerated by the Holy Spirit yet. That was still to come.

True, and if Peter could defy the law of gravity even then, under the old covenant, before anybody had been born again and baptised in the Holy Spirit, then surely I can defy the law of sin and death too. By faith, by looking at Christ, just like Peter did.

If an unregenerate man like Peter could act as if gravity didn't exist - and it WORKED - then I'm definately going to act as if I'm dead to sin too. And that works too! It's not just a theory, it actually works. It has worked against drug addiction, anger, porn addiction, the urge to tell lies, the tendency to be lazy, it has worked against belittling people who aren't around, etc etc etc, and it's still working, every day, all year.

It's all about walking in faith, fixing our eyes on Christ, and nothing is impossible!

"Actually, I have NOTHING from Adam. I have EVERYTHING from Christ "

So when you still commit sin to this day, that sin is coming from Christ who never sinined? That doesn't make sense.

I can only say like Paul, that "so it is no longer I who sin, but sin that dwells in me..." sin is as serious as it ever was, but I will not be told that I WANT to sin or DELIGHT in sin. Just because I still somtimes forget who I am and act like the miserable sinner I used to be, doesn't mean sin originates in me or is something I take pleasure in.

People tend to confuse the fact that some sins give them a short-lived sense of fun or well-being, with an actual desire to sin. Men who struggle with porn, for example; they may feel some sort of stimulation when they watch it, but it's not something they want to do.

 

[pgp_protector]

I'm disappointed to see so many arguments going on--but on this topic, I think it's more useful to ask what's right with something, rather that what's wrong with it. Does it glorify God? Does it spiritually benefit the self? Does it spiritually benefit others? Not likely. So I would say that this is not a particularly godly activity, although I don't see any scriptural evidence that would call it a sin, in the sense that killing and stealing are sins.

Major problem with that POV

Does XYZ Glorify God ?
Does XYZ spiritually benefit yourself ?
Does XYZ spiritually benefit others ?

There are many things you can replace that with

XYZ = Masturbation
XYZ = Playing Video Games
XYZ = Watching A Movie
XYZ = Going To The Lavatory
XYZ = Buying A New Dress
XYZ = Just About Anything

 

[Floatingaxe]

My new man, my inner man, my spirit, cannot sin. It is born of God. Rather than merely giving me power over sin, He let me DIE.

You are kidding yourself.

If Paul struggled with sin, why do you think you cannot sin? Give us a break, holo. Your theology is off.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Men who struggle with porn, for example; they may feel some sort of stimulation when they watch it, but it's not something they want to do.

How do you reckon that? To the natural man it may not be sin, for he may not be convicted by a dead conscience. To the natural man, sin is FUN.

The natural man desires it, for the most part.

 

[Gukkor]

You are kidding yourself.

If Paul struggled with sin, why do you think you cannot sin? Give us a break, holo. Your theology is off.

He said his new, inner man cannot sin. He also explicitly stated that sin still hangs onto the flesh, the outer self, but when a person who has been reborn in Christ sins, it is an act that is contrary to their nature, not in keeping with it.

 

[holo]

You are kidding yourself.

If Paul struggled with sin, why do you think you cannot sin? Give us a break, holo. Your theology is off.

Paul ALSO said that what is born of God CANNOT sin, and that when he sinned, it wasn't really him, but sin that lived in his flesh. Meaning that the born-again Paul, the new inner man born of God, is actually holy and perfect and wants nothing to do with sin.

But of course we can struggle. We live on a fallen planet after all, and we live in flesh and blood.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Paul ALSO said that what is born of God CANNOT sin, and that when he sinned, it wasn't really him, but sin that lived in his flesh. Meaning that the born-again Paul, the new inner man born of God, is actually holy and perfect and wants nothing to do with sin.

But of course we can struggle. We live on a fallen planet after all, and we live in flesh and blood.

And we sin, holo. So do you...

 

[Shiversblood]

Floatingaxe really wishes masturbaiting was a sin.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Floatingaxe really wishes masturbaiting was a sin.

Do not address me personally with tripe like that, youngster...

 

[holo]

How do you reckon that? To the natural man it may not be sin, for he may not be convicted by a dead conscience. To the natural man, sin is FUN.

The natural man desires it, for the most part.

Maybe so, but for us who are born again, the "natural man" is dead. A christian who sins doesn't do it because he wants to sin. No christian wants to sin.