You are making an absolute statement here. How do you know that the Jews did not understand the purpose of the law?
I think nobody understood the true purpose of the law until the Spirit had come. Jesus delivered a lot of seemingly confusing teachings on the law, and he said that only when the Spirit came, they would understand. In Jesus' day, they would ask him what's the greatest commandment and so forth, what they must DO to be saved. The secret, as it were, was that salvation was actually by
faith. That was made more clear as Paul was charged with preaching the gospel.
But if they believed they were righteous, they would not have been performing sacrifices to cover their sins. Because they knew that people who sinned are not righteous.
But these sacrifices were supposed to make them righteous, if only temporarily. We, who are righteous 24/7, obviously don't need such sacrifices, or the law at large, which is for the wicked and the ungodly.
Okay, but the question remains unanswered. Which standard did you use? Since you did not use the law of God as you have admitted up above, you must have used one of your own design. Therefore, you did not come to faith in Christ because you were made aware of your own transgressions of God's law.
I only wish it would have only been that I'd broken the clear ten commandments... I was
wicked.
So when you came ot faith you did not come to Christ seeing yourself as God sees you, a wicked sinner who needs salvation.
I did most definately see myself as a sinner. In fact, I thought I had out-sinned God's grace. However, God did NOT see me as a wicked sinner. He saw me as His child, and treated me accordingly.
Like the prodigal son's father.
Actually, that's heresy in a nutshell. You have completely ignored God's righteous anger and wrath that we have earned with our transgressions of His law.
I don't ignore it, I just recognize the fact that the punishment was laid on HIM.
Here's what you're saying "Come to Jesus, it doesn't matter why, ask Him into your heart, then do whatever you want, it doesn't matter because in the end we all get to go to Heaven. That's a false gospel, an idol. I hope for your sake though you are right and it does work that way. I haven't seen anything in scripture though to indicate that it does, however.
That's not what I'm saying.
I
doesn't matter exactly
why you come to our Father - how many quustions did the father ask his prodigal son about WHY he had come back? None. Just as, if your child was lost for years and then suddenly reappeared, you wouldn't start interrogating him about his intentions.
How do you think the prodigal son acted when he'd come home? After being loved and received and celebrated like that? Of course he could have decided to waste it all again, but by far most every single sane person would rather serve their Father with joy.
We serve and do good because we ARE saved, not in order to BECOME saved.
So you admit then that people's actions will determine where they go after they die?
If they choose justice, yes.
It's clear to me that all want grace, but not the submission to God and His plan that comes with that gift.
I agree. It's always the most religious people who have the biggest problems with grace. They would rather
earn salvation.
What does repentance mean to you? Because I think it's clear we're working with two different definitions here. It does not show people coming to Christ for a multitude of reasons. People had faith in a messiah who was sent to earth to die for their sins. Not to solve their problems or cure their sicknesses or to be the personal power source to help them get through the week to come.
Why not both? It's not like I must choose between coming to God for health, or for forgiveness. A LOT of people came to Jesus to be healed. And they were.
Um because there are other places they can get fed. Government social programs, family etc.
They're not always sufficient though.
We can feed them, but we don't want to bring them to faith in Christ for the sole purpose of feeding them.
We should feed people for the purpose of feeding them. No strings attached.
Yes He did He also said that people would know us by our fruits. Feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, helping the sick, these are all evidence of our new hearts and natures we have received when we came to faith in Christ. But you don't need silly rules like that.
True. I don't need a rule to tell me to feed a hungry person. Do you?
You have said that repeatedly because you have Jesus you don't need to live a righteous life that is pleasing to God.
No, I've never said that.
Only if you believe in a works-righteous faith system. Whereby doing good deeds and caring for others is what gets you into Heaven and not faith through grace.
Love for my neighbour isn't supposed to get ME into heaven. It's for he benefit of my neighbour. It has nothing to do with me.
I make it a rule to never assume the role of Jesus and speak for Him.
No offense, but I think you're breaking that rule regularly.
Really? Then why did the thief say "remember me when you come into your kingdom?" I think he had a pretty good idea who he was talking to.
For the same reason I called out to Jesus years ago. I had no faith I would actually be saved, I was just hoping that maybe, just maybe, he wouldn't punish me quite as hard as I deserved. If the thief believed he would join Christ in His kingdom, he wouldn't ask him to remember him.
Oh so now it comes out. You hate the Way of the Master, which is modelled after the evangelism style of Jesus Himself.
I don't hate it. I just mislike and disagree with what I've seen from them. Their "style" of evangelism seems to revolve around guilt. Jesus appears more as a way out, a safety net, than aperson who has already reconciled man and God.
No one has mentioned adherence to a creed in this discussion, yet here you are throwing it out there for the second or third time now. Why is that? Are you getting frustrated?
Yes I am. Because there is a sort of creed behind so much of what's being said here. You could list the requirements you believe are there to be saved. It would be, in effect, a creed. For example, faith in Christ isn't enough. No, he must be the
right Christ, and you must believe for the
right reasons and intentions. And unless you believe exactly like this or that, your salvation must be questioned.
Here it is! A guilt trip! LOL Classic! No one has said 'I reject you because of your sins.' No one has said that, but that's automatically where some people have to go, when they get uncomfortable with what they're hearing. They always have to try and shift the focus from themselves onto others. I do accept them and accept them for what they are, sinners in need of salvation. All people like myself want is for people to understand the real reason they need a savior and it's not for the social reasons you're putting forth.
It has nothing to do with a guilt trip. There are so many people out there, alienated from the chruch, some of them have even rejected Jesus, because they stille believe Jesus is as demanding as you are. They didn't believe in the correct way, they didn't say the right thing, they didn't have ther right theology, whatever you'd like to point your finger at. They wer perfectly saved untile christians came and ruined it all for them. With this exact kind of stuff that you're talking about. No, you DON'T accept them for who they are. They are children of the most high, but you say "I'm not so sure about that" - as if it was even your task to begin with, to be God's police.
You are acting exactly like the son who stayed home, and like the workers who had been there all day and got angry with their Lord for paying the late workers the same.
With your permission. You wanted to be judged by your posts and the things you say and not self-identify as a Christian and have people judge you based solely upon that. If you don't like the criticism or judgment, don't invite it.
Again, it's not the fact that you evaluate my opionions, it's HOW you evaluate them.
I just want you to understand your real need
Exactly... what would you have told the prodigal son, had you been there? Would you want to make sure he understood his real needs? Would you tell his father, perhaps, that "I'm not so sure about this son of yours..."?
Sorry I care a bit more about people than to let them think that they're going to Heaven when they may in fact not be, because they are not soundly saved. I can't just sit back and watch someone ignorantly walk straight into the gates of Hell without offering some kind of warning to them.
And therein lies the insanity. That people are supposedly walking straight into hell if they don't have youre exact understanding of, and motivation for, coming to Christ.
Have you searched God's riches? Do you know the depths of His grace, the extent of His love? No. Not even close (and neither am I). But you act as if you do. Where's your trust in GOD? And in His ability to tend to His own? Why do you trust so much in you own understanding of things?
I will sit under you when you demonstrate an understanding of Christianity.
But that would never happen until I fully agree with the understanding you already have.
You don't decide to follow the rules though. It's not a conscious decision you make. It's automatic because your new nature dictates it to you. You want to do it, you don't do it grudgingly because someone told you you had to.
But it's not about rules at all! It's about love.
Holo, I know that you don't do anything to please God. I see it in your words, which is what you wish to be judged by. So yes, I'm concerned that you may be a false convert. Notice I didn't say you were, but that you may be.
The reason I don't do anything for God is that I CAN'T do anything for God, and I don't NEED to do anything for God. I have nothing to offer the creator of the univers. He doesn't need my help. HE chooses to make use of ME, though.
False convert... I'm amazed that you guys are actually for real.