Is Torture Ever Morally Justified?

Fin12 said:

Yes.

But only to extract informational desperatly needed, when you have very good reason to believe that the victim knows the information.

It cannot be morally used to extract confessions.

The "5 minute ticking bomb story" isn't realistic.

Many people don't even have the slightest clue what torture is. It is a living nightmare. Films and newspapers cannot even comprehend the physchological as well as physical trauma that is experienced in torture.

Many torture victims give up before the process begins, their captors only need to explain what the torturee is going to be put through. The prospect of knowing it is going to happen to you is often all it takes.

5 minutes can be turned into a living hell.

In the ticking bomb scenario, the victim is given two options.

A: Live, the torture stops and he goes to jail.

B: Experience the most painful 5 minutes of his life and then die.

Honestly does anyone here think that if they were tied down and their captor starting melting their left ear with a cigarette lighter, they would still consider holding out for the full 5 minutes, just to die?

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Beanieboy said:

This isn't unlike the scene from The Dark Knight, where there are two ships, one with convicts, and the other with civilians. Each has the option to save themselves by killing the other. If neither blows up the other boat, he will kill them both.

What he is cleverly doing is getting them to do his work for him, making themselves the murderers responsible for the deaths of the others by acting selfishly in fear.

And indeed, the "good, innocent" people start to discuss, saying that the convicts life is somehow less than their own, how their life is better because they are innocent, all the while, trying to make that a justification for murder (but they would never call themselves that after it happened, because they are "innocent" and killed "the bad guys.")

The US, for example, has a war on terrorism, meaning, terrorist from other countries. They condemn torture in other countries, but their torture isn't torture at all, but simply a means to get information, to prevent further terrorism. We kill civilians, but they aren't people, but colateral damage.
And it helps us sleep at night.

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Beanieboy said:

However, if you were living in Iraq, you would probably see the US as terrorists themselves, militaristic bullies who kill you family and friends as part of their supposed search for Bin Laden or Sadam or WMD or democracy or whatever the reason du jour is for the war, and expect a thank you. And you may have family members stripped naked, an assault to your customs and faith, put on blocks with electrodes, photographed naked in front of female soldiers, and the photos circulated all over the world via internet.

Of course, the US claims that they are shocked, did not know about any of this, but you know that it is someone who simply got caught, and probably happens more than we even realize.

So, as an Iraqi, what would you think of the US?
As Freedom Fighters, or terrorist that are not simply a marginal extremist organization, but within the military itself, justifying torture and humiliation to the point of taking pictures to brag about it to their friends?

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Norseman said:

If I was inclined to plant a bomb to kill millions of people, I certainly would. Or, I'd lie to the torturer to ease the pain a bit. If possible, I'd trick him into accidentally detonating the bomb. Prison in the US is bad enough that I would rather die. My options are to be tortured for 5 minutes, or for my entire life. That's an easy choice. When you want to die, I think pain and disfigurement would be much more tolerable. Consider the Buddhist monks who self-immolate...

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Fin12 said:

I have to doubt prison their is that bad, if so why don't the convicts kill themselves before entering prison, that way they die (like our madman) instead of having to deal with "a life time of torture".

Prison in the U.S. gives a chance of being raped. Play your cards right and you could get away without being raped. Plus it's not, non-stop torture, and the pain wouldn't be a qaurter as bad as what you would suffer over those 5 minutes.

I'd press to assume you have never been tortured, if you really want a feel, hold a lighter on your hand for 3 seconds, " would you be willing to go for 5 minutes?"


Prison, chance of rape, chance of death, get out eventually.

or tortures death.

hmmm... ...I'll have to think on that one

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I've been sentenced for a D.U.I. offense. My 3rd one. When I first came to prison, I had no idea what to expect. Certainly none of this. I'm a tall white male, who unfortunately has a small amount of feminine characteristics. And very shy. These characteristics have got me raped so many times I have no more feelings physically. I have been raped by up to 5 black men and two white men at a time. I've had knifes at my head and throat. I had fought and been beat so hard that I didn't ever think I'd see straight again. One time when I refused to enter a cell, I was brutally attacked by staff and taken to segragation though I had only wanted to prevent the same and worse by not locking up with my cell mate. There is no supervision after lockdown. I was given a conduct report. I explained to the hearing officer what the issue was. He told me that off the record, He suggests I find a man I would/could willingly have sex with to prevent these things from happening. I've requested protective custody only to be denied. It is not available here. He also said there was no where to run to, and it would be best for me to accept things . . . . I probably have AIDS now. I have great difficulty raising food to my mouth from shaking after nightmares or thinking to hard on all this . . . . I've laid down without physical fight to be sodomized. To prevent so much damage in struggles, ripping and tearing. Though in not fighting, it caused my heart and spirit to be raped as well. Something I don't know if I'll ever forgive myself for.

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Ringo84 said:

No. Never. If it's wrong when our enemies use it on our soldiers, it's wrong when we use it on them. Period.
Ringo

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Should a Christian support torture?

Christians often live in conflict with the world around us. At this present time this conflict is clear when it comes to the question of torture. Some in authority around us would have us believe that torture is an acceptable means for gathering information, especially when someone labeled a terrorist holds that information. However as Christians we are bound not to accept that argument.

In the following paper I will look at the reasons I believe that Christians should not support torture.

Humans Made in God’s Image.

In Genesis 1:27 we are told that human beings are made in God’s image. We are, according to the Genesis story, the special creation of a loving God, further in Genesis 9:6 this principle is extended (by implication) to all human beings. Christians have always considered that God has endowed us with certain inalienable rights and that God shows us the value of humanity, firstly, in creating us and, secondly, in becoming one of us in the Incarnation.

Because a human being is of infinite worth to God we cannot disfigure, torment or harm another person also made in God’s image and also of infinite worth.

Do not vex the Stranger in your midst.

Time after time the Old Testament reminds us that God has a compassionate concern for the vulnerable in our midst, the widow, the orphan, the stranger all these are recipient’s of God’s special interest. God condemns any form of injustice that further marginalizes these already hurting folk who are at the mercy of the society around them.

We are called to recall our own vulnerability and to remember that we too were once strangers in a strange land, lacking support and seeking justice rather than injustice and oppression. (Ex 22:21; Ex. 23:9; Lev. 19:33 & 34; Deut. 10:18-19.)

All human life is God’s gift.

We are reminded in Psalm 139:13; Psalm 22:10 and Jeremiah 1:5 that all human beings are formed in the loving concern of God. All those who live and move and have their being do so in the grace and compassion of God. When we deliberately damage them, as we do in torture, we mar and afflict the plan of God for these folk; we sin against them and against God who brought them forth from the womb alive.

Further torture fails the test of the Great Commandment to love others as we love ourselves and is condemned in Matthew 25: 31 ff., where Jesus quite clearly says that when we hurt, afflict and torture someone we are doing it to him. Again, torture is a breach of 1 Corinthians 13 and a profound failure of morals.

Moreover torture does not just warp the tortured but also the torturer, in ordering the torture of a human being we are responsible not just for damage done to the victim but also to the person who is our tool in carrying out the torture.

We turn, by accepting torture, ordinary human beings into sadists and potential murderers for information that most often is given solely to stop the pain being inflicted. As well torture inevitably affects the moral standing of the society and nation which allows it. Once begun it is difficult to stop, one used on ‘terrorists’ from outside of a society, it is hard not to use it on dissenters within the society.

In summary then, torture demeans and damages humans who were purposed by God, who are loved by God and for whom Christ lived and died. It is a breaking of both Old and New Testament commandments and a damage to the moral structure of both individual human beings and the society that uses and enables it. For these reasons I do not believe that a Christian can ever support torture.

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kiwimac said:

An article I wrote last year.

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Beanieboy said:

Waterboarding is used by the CIA, and it is debated about whether or not it is actually classified as torture.The person has water poured into breathing passages, experiencing drowning, and feeling that they are going to die. It causes the gag reflex, brain damage, lung damage, and extreme pain.

Yet, they aren't sure if that really qualifies as "torture." Something used in the Spanish Inquisition, and they are trying to argue whether or not that is torture.

I've seen movies where the mob takes a guy by the hair, and submerges his head into a tub of water for a minute. They then ask the guy where the money is. He says that he doesn't know, and goes in a little longer, and as it progresses, he is coughing from the water entering his lungs, unsure if he will live through this.

Why is that so easily understood as torture, and an even harsher technique, waterboarding, more of a argument of semantics of what defines torture?

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tocis said:

(coming late to the thread... oh well)

Torture does not work. We know that since the burning times.

Nothing in the world can justify inflicting pain on a fellow human without even the slightest chance of any benefit to others.

Enough said.

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MoonlessNight said:

So would torture be justifiable if it actually was a useful method of extracting information? If so it seems to me what we need are more sophisticated methods of torture.

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MoonlessNight said:

So would torture be justifiable if it actually was a useful method of extracting information? If so it seems to me what we need are more sophisticated methods of torture.

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