Is Torture Ever Morally Justified?

Is Torture Ever Morally Justified?

  • Never

  • Yes, but only in very rare or extreme cercumstances.

  • Yes, as a common method of interrogation.

  • Not sure


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Norseman

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You can't use it to get useful information. Someone being tortured can just lie endlessly, or say nothing, and this is always better for them. Someone who refuses to confess to anything, and refuses to admit any knowledge of anything has a chance of getting out of torture; someone who confesses may be sent to prison where they will be anally-raped for the rest of their life. Any sane person will recognize that they should admit nothing under torture, and hope someone will rescue them. Those who believe they will go to heaven should prefer death. They should prefer to trick their torturer into accidentally killing them, or to provoke their torturer to do it intentionally.

Let's say you've caught a guy that you think planted a nuke in New York city, and you want to start torturing him to find out how to deactivate it. You've got 5 minutes before it goes off. That guy can lie to you for five minutes, and then his suffering will end. Or, he can tell you how to do it and he will be tortured for the rest of his life. There is no way you will get him to tell you how to deactivate it. Even if the blast won't kill him, his lawyer might be able to set him free. If he's actually a terrorist, his terrorist buddies might be able to break him out of prison. As soon as he admits that he knows how to deactivate the bomb, and tells you how, the rest of his life is going to be nothing but endless suffering. Even if you threaten to personally torture him for the rest of his life, there's the possibility his friends will rescue him. If he says how to deactivate the bomb, his friends will certainly let him rot.

Torture can be effectively used for only one purpose, and that is to scare people into submission. So, I don't see any circumstance where torture could ever be justified.
 
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Washington

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Norseman said:
You can't use it to get useful information.

"Nearly forty years ago, . . . . - when McCain was held captive in a North Vietnamese prison camp - some of the same techniques were used on him. And - as McCain has publicly admitted at least twice - the torture worked!"

In his 1999 autobiography, "Faith of My Fathers," McCain describes how he was severely injured when his plane was shot down over Hanoi - and how his North Vietnamese interrogators used his injuries to extract information.

"Demands for military information were accompanied by threats to terminate my medical treatment if I did not cooperate," he wrote.

"I thought they were bluffing and refused to provide any information beyond my name, rank and serial number, and date of birth. They knocked me around a little to force my cooperation."

The punishment finally worked, McCain said. "Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant."

source
 
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stan1980

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Torture can never be justified by the state in my opinion.

Could I ever justify carrying out torture myself? Only in extreme, unlikely circumstances. Say I have been charged and on bail for a crime I haven't committed, and only I know for sure, 100%, a witness has lied about information which has incriminated me. I could justify to myself putting pressure on the witness in the best way I see fit, to make sure a miscarriage of justice doesn't occur. I don't think a scenario like this is ever likely to happen to me, but if a person is prepared to play 'dirty' to take away your freedom, you'd be stupid not to weigh up all your options.
 
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Pogue

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Never. You should not cause pain to someone else to achieve your own ends, and looking at a wider picture, it doesn't do any good. It could be used to justify further evil.
 
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Norseman

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"Nearly forty years ago, . . . . - when McCain was held captive in a North Vietnamese prison camp - some of the same techniques were used on him. And - as McCain has publicly admitted at least twice - the torture worked!"

In his 1999 autobiography, "Faith of My Fathers," McCain describes how he was severely injured when his plane was shot down over Hanoi - and how his North Vietnamese interrogators used his injuries to extract information.

"Demands for military information were accompanied by threats to terminate my medical treatment if I did not cooperate," he wrote.

"I thought they were bluffing and refused to provide any information beyond my name, rank and serial number, and date of birth. They knocked me around a little to force my cooperation."

The punishment finally worked, McCain said. "Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant."

source

That's nothing. His ship's name and squadron number are almost useless. He confirmed what they already knew about his target. And even if they didn't know what he was targeting, it's still useless information. If he had actually given them useful info, and the military found out about it, he would have been court-martialed under article 104 of the United States Military Code of Justice for giving intelligence to the enemy.
 
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Norseman

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Say I have been charged and on bail for a crime I haven't committed, and only I know for sure, 100%, a witness has lied about information which has incriminated me. I could justify to myself putting pressure on the witness in the best way I see fit, to make sure a miscarriage of justice doesn't occur. I don't think a scenario like this is ever likely to happen to me, but if a person is prepared to play 'dirty' to take away your freedom, you'd be stupid not to weigh up all your options.

Let's say you do that. How does anyone know if the witness is telling the truth when you torture them, or just what you want them to say?
 
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stan1980

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Let's say you do that. How does anyone know if the witness is telling the truth when you torture them, or just what you want them to say?

I'm not saying it should be legal for me to use methods to make them change their mind or not turn up, in fact it definitely shouldn't be legal. I'm just saying if I know they are definitely lying and incriminating me or framing me, then I could easily *justify to myself* doing whatever it takes to make sure a miscarriage of justice doesn't happen, especially if it saves 25 years of my life being taken away from me for something I haven't done. The question was could I ever justify torture, and yes I could in these very specific unlikely circumstances.
 
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Norseman

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I'm not saying it should be legal for me to use methods to make them change their mind or not turn up, in fact it definitely shouldn't be legal. I'm just saying if I know they are definitely lying and incriminating me or framing me, then I could easily *justify to myself* doing whatever it takes to make sure a miscarriage of justice doesn't happen, especially if it saves 25 years of my life being taken away from me for something I haven't done. The question was could I ever justify torture, and yes I could in these very specific unlikely circumstances.

Ok, so let's say you decide to torture a witness who you know is lying, in order to prove your innocence. Let's assume you record their confession. How does the jury/judge know whether or not the witness was telling the truth when you tortured them, or just saying what you forced them to say? How does torturing them "make sure a miscarriage of justice doesn't happen"?
 
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stan1980

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Ok, so let's say you decide to torture a witness who you know is lying, in order to prove your innocence. Let's assume you record their confession. How does the jury/judge know whether or not the witness was telling the truth when you tortured them, or just saying what you forced them to say? How does torturing them "make sure a miscarriage of justice doesn't happen"?

The likely goal in these very unlikely circumstances would be to scare the person in question to withdraw their statement. Recording a confession would be a bit silly. I'm just coming up with a scenario where I could justify to myself using underhanded tactics, as I would know they have lied.
 
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stan1980

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I doubt it. If you tortured someone, I think they would do everything in their power to make sure you never got out of prison. Particularly if they're already lying to get you into prison.

Well then, let me ask you this, if it came to a situation where you would be serving most your life in prison for something they'd lied about, or getting rid of them, could you justify doing whatever is necessary to stop them? I'm not saying I would, I'm just coming up with a scenario where I could justify it. It basically comes down to you or them.
 
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Norseman

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If I was free enough to torture them into silence, then I would be free enough to leave the country. Assuming that I could be put into prison for most of my life because one person lied about me, I think I would prefer to leave the country anyway.
 
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stan1980

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Leaving the country would be a better option, but normally your passport is taken off you when you are on bail, so it might not be that easy. Assuming leaving the country is impossible, could you justify putting pressure or doing whatever it necessary on someone who is lying. You might not go through with anything, but I'm pretty sure you could justify it, yes?
 
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