Is Tim Conway teaching a works based salvation yes or no?

[faceofbear]

Robert, don't worry about how to receive it. Ask yourself, is Christ all you need for salvation? Answer that to yourself, truthfully, and if the answer is yes, you're saved. Don't just say, "Well, of course He's enough," autonomously. Genuinely think about it, but don't over-think it as you and I have a tendency to do.

The issue you are having Robert is you're so focused on what YOU must do to be saved, but it's not about YOU, it's about Christ. Christ redeemed all He did, has, and will redeem, 2,000 years ago. If you believe this, you're saved. If you don't, you're condemned.

But now I believe you're probably saying to yourself, "But what if I'm not believing enough, or what if I don't REALLY believe it?" or "I'm trying to believe, but I can't!" Again, you're placing the emphasis on yourself. How much faith is enough to save you? None. So, Christ must save you. How do you know if you REALLY believe? You don't. So, Christ must save you. How can you believe? You can't. So, Christ must save you.

Robert, you keep digging into your flesh thinking you have SOMETHING to commend yourself to God. But you don't. You're whole dependency is on Christ. If it's not on Christ, you're not saved. This whole issue you are going through wondering if you're saved, wondering if you've had repentance, wondering if you have faith, saving faith, etc. is, I believe, God showing you that you have NOTHING to offer Him. This is how it was with me, and still is. It comes to the point, Robert, where you can truthfully look at yourself and say, "I have nothing to offer God but am a wretched sinner who has no good in Him and can do nothing but sin. I can never have enough faith to save me, nor enough repentance," and come to a resting in Christ because of your awareness you have nothing, or you can continue to rely on your flesh... which Christ said was useless.

 

[new_wine]

The word perfect used in Matthew is not infallible.

It means to be the best that we can be. Just as God is the best God he can be.

You have to be careful how the words are used. We can be perfect. God even called Job perfect. Perfect in physical attributes as men can be. Not without fail. Only God is without fail.

So Jesus is saying be the best you. Because that is what God is, the best he can be.

We can all do that if we apply ourselves. Grace is given freely and we don't need to lift a finger. We just accept and then focus on our changed lives. We have tasks to complete, but they do not have anything to do with grace.

So I must be perfect to get to heaven? Well I can already tell you right now that that opportunity is shot down the drain.

 

[His_disciple3]

"but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, 'You shall be holy, for I am holy.'"
1 Peter 1:15-16

"You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Matthew 5:48

"and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect"
Hebrews 12:23

first of all 1 peter 1:15-16. we have been called and also would have to answered that call so we are saved then told to be Holy, as also in matthew 5:48 as your heavenly Father is perfect, He is already our heavenly Father so we are also already saved here and then told to be perfect. and in hebrews 12: 23 we are enrolled in Heaven, again already saved then made perfect by the Blood. if we are saved then we shall never perish. so what is you point:

John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
KJV

John 10:27-30
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
KJV
yeah it is important us to be sinfree, perfect, mature but not for salvation, for salvation is a Gift, and are you saying that you are perfect at this time, and if you died in your sleep tonight because you are perfect, you would be worthy enough to make it to heaven????

 

[Christian_Believer22]

so what is you point

Why the defensive tone over a few Bible verses? It's not about my point, it's about God's point since those verses are the word of God. I don't think those verses needed explaining.

 

[faceofbear]

Why the defensive tone over a few Bible verses? It's not about my point, it's about God's point since those verses are the word of God. I don't think those verses needed explaining.

Most likely because the verses you took were out of context and completely missing the point of the overall message of those passages, which has contributed probably nothing more but confusion for RobertZ and others. Perhaps you're forgetting Romans 3. The only way any of us can be holy is to have Christ's imputed holiness, because without God's holiness, we cannot see Him. And I can guarantee no man has ever had that holiness. Not David, not Paul. Not me. Not you. No one. There is none righteous, present tense. Not even the best of Christians. The most perfect holiness any Christian could ever have on earth is still entirely deserving of God's eternal wrath. We've all fallen short of the glory of God, and God's people are justified by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, not by some works-based, self-righteous, Pharisaical-asceticism law keeping.

 

[Christian_Believer22]

Most likely because the verses you took were out of context and completely missing the point of the overall message of those passages, which has contributed probably nothing more but confusion for RobertZ and others. Perhaps you're forgetting Romans 3. The only way any of us can be holy is to have Christ's imputed holiness, because without God's holiness, we cannot see Him. And I can guarantee no man has ever had that holiness. Not David, not Paul. Not me. Not you. No one. There is none righteous, present tense. Not even the best of Christians. The most perfect holiness any Christian could ever have on earth is still entirely deserving of God's eternal wrath. We've all fallen short of the glory of God, and God's people are justified by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, not by some works-based, self-righteous, Pharisaical-asceticism law keeping.

The verses that I quoted don't contradict anything else in scripture, so I don't know why people are upset about those verses.

 

[Hammster]

"but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, 'You shall be holy, for I am holy.'"
1 Peter 1:15-16

"You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Matthew 5:48

"and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect"
Hebrews 12:23

Maybe I can help. In response to Robert's question, do you believe that these verses teach that we must obtain perfection in order to be saved?

 

[Ron Wood]

So I must be perfect to get to heaven? Well I can already tell you right now that that opportunity is shot down the drain.

Yes you must be perfect to get into Heaven. But that is what the Gospel is all about. Christ is the perfect one and in Him all who believe are just as perfect as He is. He is the perfect Savior, the perfect rightousness, perfect holiness and the only perfection God can and will accept. Believing in Him I am unitied with Him as one and in Him I am as perfect as He is. In myself I am nothing but sin but in Him I am holy, undefiled and perfect. That is why Paul said that we are complete in Him. Col. 2:10 That means that there is nothing lacking or anything left to be done. He has done it all and God has declared that He accepts it by raising Him from the dead and setting Him on the throne. John says that as He is so are we in this world, 1John 4:17. It can't be any more plain than that. Our perfection isn't something we accomplish it is something we rest in because Christ has accomplished it for us.

 

[RobertZ]

Yes you must be perfect to get into Heaven. But that is what the Gospel is all about. Christ is the perfect one and in Him all who believe are just as perfect as He is. He is the perfect Savior, the perfect rightousness, perfect holiness and the only perfection God can and will accept. Believing in Him I am unitied with Him as one and in Him I am as perfect as He is. In myself I am nothing but sin but in Him I am holy, undefiled and perfect. That is why Paul said that we are complete in Him. Col. 2:10 That means that there is nothing lacking or anything left to be done. He has done it all and God has declared that He accepts it by raising Him from the dead and setting Him on the throne. John says that as He is so are we in this world, 1John 4:17. It can't be any more plain than that. Our perfection isn't something we accomplish it is something we rest in because Christ has accomplished it for us.

Thank you Ron, that was spoken with such conviction yet was simple enough that I could understand it clearly.

 

[RobertZ]

Robert, don't worry about how to receive it. Ask yourself, is Christ all you need for salvation? Answer that to yourself, truthfully, and if the answer is yes, you're saved. Don't just say, "Well, of course He's enough," autonomously. Genuinely think about it, but don't over-think it as you and I have a tendency to do.

The issue you are having Robert is you're so focused on what YOU must do to be saved, but it's not about YOU, it's about Christ. Christ redeemed all He did, has, and will redeem, 2,000 years ago. If you believe this, you're saved. If you don't, you're condemned.

But now I believe you're probably saying to yourself, "But what if I'm not believing enough, or what if I don't REALLY believe it?" or "I'm trying to believe, but I can't!" Again, you're placing the emphasis on yourself. How much faith is enough to save you? None. So, Christ must save you. How do you know if you REALLY believe? You don't. So, Christ must save you. How can you believe? You can't. So, Christ must save you.

Robert, you keep digging into your flesh thinking you have SOMETHING to commend yourself to God. But you don't. You're whole dependency is on Christ. If it's not on Christ, you're not saved. This whole issue you are going through wondering if you're saved, wondering if you've had repentance, wondering if you have faith, saving faith, etc. is, I believe, God showing you that you have NOTHING to offer Him. This is how it was with me, and still is. It comes to the point, Robert, where you can truthfully look at yourself and say, "I have nothing to offer God but am a wretched sinner who has no good in Him and can do nothing but sin. I can never have enough faith to save me, nor enough repentance," and come to a resting in Christ because of your awareness you have nothing, or you can continue to rely on your flesh... which Christ said was useless.

Yet another wonderful post that I can understand and agree with.

 

[Christian_Believer22]

Maybe I can help. In response to Robert's question, do you believe that these verses teach that we must obtain perfection in order to be saved?

Is that what those verses say?

 

[Hammster]

I see that you just want to be contrary. So never mind.

 

[faceofbear]

Is that what those verses say?

Christ also said you must be born again. He also said you must eat of His flesh and drink of His blood. Christ also said you must hate your family, and even your own life. Christ also said you must pick up your cross and follow Him. Christ also said you must sell all your possessions and give to the poor. Have you done anything of these things, literally? If not, then why does your name call yourself a Christian?

 

[Ron Wood]

You must be this tall to post in this forum.

Just caught this. I love it. It applies so very well to us here. We think we are eagles soaring high when in reality we are only knats which love to bother folks.

 

[phoenixdem]

Yes. James tells us that good works are a result of grace, but this man is teaching that salvation is something that the believer has to do to gain his salvation.

 

[phoenixdem]

The text he talks about is Matthew 18:8.

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire." Matthew 18:8-9


There really is no way we can dance around this text and make it fit our theology. If we are not cutting off those things within us that cause us to sin we will go to hell, no "saved by grace alone through faith alone" will be able to help us out on that if we are not doing what Christ said in this text.


We either kill our sin and go to heaven or keep our sin and go to hell.

Have you done these things?

 

[Anihilus]

Have you done these things?

Cut off things that have caused me to sin? Yes, I have. It was not easy and there was much discipline from the Lord as well as grace, but hands, eyes, and feet have come off and out.

 

[Hammster]

Cut off things that have caused me to sin? Yes, I have. It was not easy and there was much discipline from the Lord as well as grace, but hands, eyes, and feet have come off and out.

So you are sin free?

 

[phoenixdem]

Cut off things that have caused me to sin? Yes, I have. It was not easy and there was much discipline from the Lord as well as grace, but hands, eyes, and feet have come off and out.

You must have someone to do your typing then. Anyway, I can tell you take your religion seriously. Good man.

 

[Anihilus]

So you are sin free?

I don't think Christ was telling His disciples that they were to never sin again. If He meant that He probably would have simply told them to never sin again.

I think it is clear that what Christ is saying in this verse is that, if something in your life is causing you to sin, get rid of it, or you will go to hell.

I really don't see any other meaning to that verse.