Is Tim Conway teaching a works based salvation yes or no?

[RobertZ]

One minute someone will say just rest in Christ to be saved then the next minute they will tell you something so different that it makes salvation seem to be an impossibility. After listening to this message I am more discouraged than ever before.

YouTube - The Battle With Sin: Violent for Humility - Tim Conway

 

[Anihilus]

No, he isn't. I have listened to the video two times since it came out and I pretty much agree with what he says. How is he teaching you have to work for salvation?

I can understand about the discouragement thing, but what will sitting around and worry about it do?

 

[Hammster]

Anytime you hear someone say, "Yes, we are saved by grace through faith. BUT..." it is a red flag. Our salvation isn't dependent on the size of our faith but upon the amount of His grace. We don't work to overcome. We rest in the one who has overcome. That's the gospel.

 

[RobertZ]

Anytime you hear someone say, "Yes, we are saved by grace through faith. BUT..." it is a red flag.

Funny you say that because I was thinking the exact same thing when I heard him use the "But" word.

 

[RobertZ]

How is he teaching you have to work for salvation?

Thats what I wasnt sure about and was looking for more input on Tim's message.

 

[Anihilus]

The text he talks about is Matthew 18:8.

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire." Matthew 18:8-9


There really is no way we can dance around this text and make it fit our theology. If we are not cutting off those things within us that cause us to sin we will go to hell, no "saved by grace alone through faith alone" will be able to help us out on that if we are not doing what Christ said in this text.


We either kill our sin and go to heaven or keep our sin and go to hell.

 

[RobertZ]

The text he talks about is Matthew 18:8.

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire." Matthew 18:8-9


There really is no way we can dance around this text and make it fit our theology. If we are not cutting off those things within us that cause us to sin we will go to hell, no "saved by grace alone through faith alone" will be able to help us out on that if we are not doing what Christ said in this text.


We either kill our sin and go to heaven or keep our sin and go to hell.

So then in heaven we can boast that we are there because we cut off an arm or plucked out an eye to prevent sin? Why on earth did Christ even die in the first place if all of this stuff is necessary for salvation?

I understand that a saved person will naturally repent when they are doing wrong because the spirit will convict them of the sin in their life but this seems as though we must be perfect before we can even be saved.

 

[Hammster]

We either kill our sin and go to heaven or keep our sin and go to hell.

I think this would be a better verse to use:

You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[RobertZ]

So I must be perfect to get to heaven? Well I can already tell you right now that that opportunity is shot down the drain.

 

[Hammster]

So I must be perfect to get to heaven? Well I can already tell you right now that that opportunity is shot down the drain.

Exactly. Which is why we need the Gospel.

 

[Gerty3820]

Nobody is perfect. Everyone has sin. You accept Jesus as your personal savior, you read the Word, live the Word and repent for your sins. Thats all you can do.

 

[student ad x]

Robert, everything in the Bible that reveals God's moral expectations is law; everything in the Bible that reveals God's saving purposes/acts is gospel. The law tells us what we must do; the gospel tells us what God has done for us. Love is the summary of God's law and God's moral commands stipulate what love of God and neighbor means.

 

[faceofbear]

Robert, you'll never find rest in repentance because no repentance is sufficient to save you. Nor is your faith. We need to be perfect to get to Heaven but that is why Christ must be our everything. We need His imputed righteousness, because without it, we're all damned. Even with the most perfect penitent and faithful sinner.

Robert, even if you had 100% repentance and never sinned again, would you still doubt your salvation? Probably.

 

[RobertZ]

We need His imputed righteousness, because without it, we're all damned.

And how does one go about getting it?

 

[Anihilus]

And how does one go about getting it?

You receive it by faith. It is a free gift, not something you earn. You go to Christ for it, not try and make Him come to you with your prayers or repentance or any other work.

You should go to Christ, He will save you.

 

[Hammster]

Sorry, but you knew somebody had to post one. Might as well get it out if the way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P2dbwrT_fQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[Ron Wood]

Listened to as much of it as I could stomach. Like all false teachers he points you to yourself. He is subtle in his presentation of a works salvation and even outright denies that is what he is teaching but it is works nonetheless. As is usual with religious teachers he tells us very little if anything of the person and work of Christ. He points you to what you must do instead of what Christ has done. Like most religious teachers he focuses on sin as though it is a thing that can be overcome by you if you only work hard enough. He makes sin a thing to be avoided rather than an evil nature that is enmity against God. He speaks as though sin is so very bad but in reality he makes sin to be much less than what it actually is. It is bad but you can overcome it and quit doing it. That makes sin a sickness that you can heal with the right formula as medicine instead of a death that only Christ can overcome.

Are we in a battle? Sure we are. We fight with our old nature on a constant basis but we don't look to our ability to overcome by taking the right steps or following a laid out plan. We fight our battle by faith. We know the old man within us and recognize that he will do anything to regain the throne of our hearts. But we look to Him who has put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself and made us to be as holy as He is by our union wirth Him. Our love for Christ doesn't overcome our sin but His love for us.

 

[His_disciple3]

The text he talks about is Matthew 18:8.

"And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire." Matthew 18:8-9


There really is no way we can dance around this text and make it fit our theology. If we are not cutting off those things within us that cause us to sin we will go to hell, no "saved by grace alone through faith alone" will be able to help us out on that if we are not doing what Christ said in this text.


We either kill our sin and go to heaven or keep our sin and go to hell.

Sin and works are totally two different subjects, this discussion is about works and salvation why bring sin into it. most folks don't understand God and His Love and Grace and Mercy. but since you brought up sin, let me give you this to ponder on! unless you can trust T-totally in God to save you and to keep you saved, did you know that your works won't mean a hill of beans? there was some in the Bible that said they should get in because they had done great works in the Name of Jesus, and they were cast out!! Why, because that was the reason they thought they should have gotten in, their works. these weren't saved and did great works while they were saved and then walked away, for Jesus said "I never knew you"

I want to hear one person in this forum to say that they are good enough to get into the Kingdom of God or Heaven because of their works or because they are without sin!!!! and if you can't say this you shouldn't be looking at anyone else's splinter but rather looking at the Beam in your own eye!!! you know what? I can say this, I am good enough and perfect enough to get in........................through Jesus Christ and this is the only way Me or anyone else can say they are in, is through the righteousness and the Works that is of Jesus Christ. just something to ponder on!!!!

Jude 24-25
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
KJV


If you believe that you are perfect or without sin and you have arrived, think upon this, it says in Jude that God is able to keep us from falling, the Bible also says:
Romans 14:23
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
KJV

do you doubt you are saved? can we knowed that we are saved, if it is based on our works. if you doubt, you are damned, because doubt is not of faith, and if it is not of faith, then it is sin, if you don't believe that God can saved you no matter what, then it is not of faith, and you are constantly living in sin just as much as a person in a open homosexual life style, or aperson lying all the time, or as one that lives in an adulterous life style, or yes even as much as that person that is living in sin and thinks that God has saved them, as much as that person that has taken grace and used it as a license to sin. if it is not of faith it is a sin.

Revelation 21:8
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
KJV

yep there it is, the unbelieving/without faith. unbelieving what, unbelieving that there is a God, unbelieving that God can save you, unbelieving that you can live a holy and righteous life now that after you have called upon Him. unbeliving that He is able to keep you from falling, unbelieving that Jesus paid the price for you, and there is nothing left for you to do. unbelieving that paul does not ever contradict his teachings when he said not of my works, least I boast!!! unbelieving that Jesus said if you love me keep my commandments. look at the fearful part, what could we be afaid of, fearful that what we have done is good enough!!! if one does not have faith that God can save them then this is not of faith and it is a sin!!! yet you will judge the homosexuals, the lair, the gossipers and all other sin, without faith that God can take care of all our sins is a sin itself, unbelieving that Those that trust in the Lord shall never Perish, unbelieving that salvation is a gift, unbelieving that salvation is of the Lord!!

Jude 24-25
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
KJV

 

[Ron Wood]

John says in 1John 5:4;

(1Jn 5:4) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
(1Jn 5:5) Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

What in the world is he talking about? Well in the verse just before he spoke of keeping His commandments. So what are the commandments we are to keep? He already answered that question several verses before in chapter 3 verse 23.
(1Jn 3:22) And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
(1Jn 3:23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
(1Jn 3:24) And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.


So then how is faith the victory that overcomes the world? First we must understand that it isn't the act of faith but the object of faith that overcomes the world. Having faith in our faith is damning. So then it is the object of our faith, the Lord Jesus Christ, that is in view here. He was manifested to take away our sins and in Him is no sin. 1John 3:5. John isn't talking about His sinlessness but ours in Him. In Him we have no sin. Faith looks to the perfect righteousness and holiness of Christ as ours in Him and rest in that alone as all our hope before God. Faith sees in Him That holiness without which no man shall see the Lord, that righteousness which Gods calls perfect and acceptable, a thorough and complete putting away of my sin, and full and free access to all the blessings and promises of God.
Looking to Christ we find that the love of God is shed abroad in out hearts, that is God's love for us not ours for Him. We find that He loved us and gave Himself for us. We begin to actually understand what the statement means that God is love.

Our victory isn't that we love Him but that He loves us. That is what faith is.

 

[Christian_Believer22]

So I must be perfect to get to heaven? Well I can already tell you right now that that opportunity is shot down the drain.

"but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, 'You shall be holy, for I am holy.'"
1 Peter 1:15-16

"You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Matthew 5:48

"and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect"
Hebrews 12:23