Is this what they call "Orthodox?"

[ArmyMatt]

I guess St Jude is telling folks to be blasphemers too: And on some have compassion, making a distinction;[d] 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,[e] hating even the garment defiled by the flesh

and St Paul is one too I guess: I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

and here he as again in 1 Corinthians: For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

and in Romans: if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.


wait....wait.....maybe, it's the meaning of the word "save" and the context.......maybe we should factor that in before we see what is blasphemy and what is not.....maybe......?

 

[FreedByte]

Not really. I see the term co-redemptrix and it seems to me that she's being held on equal footing.

One of the big problems I had with Catholicism was the whole "Mary, save us" idea that seemed to permeate a lot of prayers.

I don't believe the EO hold her in the co-redemptrix view

http://www.christianforums.com/t7525239/

 

[FreedByte]

To a Satanist or a Heretic making up their own religion, sure, but not to a member of the historic Christian church following in the footsteps of Christ and his apostles.

Wait, you're Anabaptist and you pray to Mary?

 

[FreedByte]

Also, I was the OP on the thread that this thread is a reply to

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

The EO's don't believe that Mary is the savior.

Then they should repent, and stop chanting prayers that proclaim she is the salvation of the Christian people.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Also, I was the OP on the thread that this thread is a reply to

Yes, and you even questioned it, which is why you should listen to your conscience, for the Lord bears witness to our conscience.

 

[FreedByte]

Yes, and you even questioned it, which is why you should listen to your conscience, for the Lord bears witness to our conscience.

If you actually read the prayer, it asks for deliverance from adversity, which is clearly not the same salvation as Christ's salvation

 

[truefiction1]

It's not a phony understanding.

And the context still really hasn't been defined. I've read a thread where several people offer their thoughts on it, mainly stating "well, it doesn't really mean what it looks like" and "that prayer isn't for unbelievers to hear".

Why call her the salvation of the Christian people if she isn't?

Being a Lord is a bit different than being called the Salvation of the Christian people. You're trying to compare apples to oranges.

I find that we shouldn't have ANY reference to Mary when it comes to salvation and eternal life and redemption in our religious beliefs. It's really easy to see why people are turned off to Orthodoxy/Catholicism when they see these types of prayers.

We honor Mary in our faith, but we do not elevate her.

We sometimes worry about things we needn't while neglecting those that are most important and expedient.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

If you actually read the prayer, it asks for deliverance from adversity, which is clearly not the same salvation as Christ's salvation

I read the prayer, and it is blasphemy to proclaim....

"O blessed Theotokos, open the doors of compassion to us whose hope is in you, that we may not perish but be delivered from adversity through you, who are the salvation of the Christian people."

 

[Shiranui117]

I read the prayer, and it is blasphemy to proclaim....

"O blessed Theotokos, open the doors of compassion to us whose hope is in you, that we may not perish but be delivered from adversity through you, who are the salvation of the Christian people."

It looks like blasphemy if you don't understand the context of the prayer. I can explain if you like.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

wait....wait.....maybe, it's the meaning of the word "save" and the context.......maybe we should factor that in before we see what is blasphemy and what is not.....maybe......?

Maybe people ought to start believing in what the scriptures actually say is true instead of worshiping the creature more than the Creator?

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

That name is not "theotokos" or Mary, and to proclaim such is blasphemy!

 

[Sayre]

It really sounds like you've got your mind made up, despite many orthodox telling you that you are not interpreting the words the same way they do. That's a shame (and pretty arrogant too, I might add).

Then they should repent, and stop chanting prayers that proclaim she is the salvation of the Christian people.

They do not believe that Mary saves. They believe that through Mary (i.e. through the Son she bore) there is salvation. The difference is important.

I read the prayer, and it is blasphemy to proclaim....

"O blessed Theotokos, open the doors of compassion to us whose hope is in you, that we may not perish but be delivered from adversity through you, who are the salvation of the Christian people."

Again, do you understand what they mean when they say that? Because they are telling you, and you aren't listening...

Maybe people ought to start believing in what the scriptures actually say is true instead of worshiping the creature more than the Creator?

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

That name is not "theotokos" or Mary, and to proclaim such is blasphemy!

No one is saying that salvation comes from Mary rather than from Christ. They are saying that Christ comes through Mary, and salvation is in Christ.

 

[Albion]

They do not believe that Mary saves.

Actually, many of them DO believe that Mary saves. This may be because their church condones it or because the wording of the prayers used says exactly that, regardless of what some theologians somewhere might say by way of clarification.

More than a million people--clergy and laity both-- signed a petition to the Vatican to have the Pope use his "infallible" power by proclaiming Mary the co-redemptrix of the world. You know the meaning of the term, I assume.

 

[Sayre]

Actually, many of them DO believe that Mary saves. This may be because their church condones it or because the wording of the prayers used says exactly that, regardless of what some theologians somewhere might say by way of clarification.

More than a million people--clergy and laity both-- signed a petition to the Vatican to have the Pope use his "infallible" power by proclaiming Mary the co-redemptrix of the world. You know the meaning of the term, I assume.

How many EO's believe that Mary provides salvation from sin? There are none I know of.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

It's not a phony understanding.

We honor Mary in our faith, but we do not elevate her.

Why wouldn't you? Through Adam and Eve's disobedience we all suffer the consequences of sin...death. Through Mary's obedience, we have Christ...and life eternal! Christ was not born from Peter or Paul...just as Eve was the mother of us all and brought death into humanity, so Mary, through Christ, is the mother of us all and brought eternal life (Christ) to humanity!

 

[Joseph Hazen]

Actually, many of them DO believe that Mary saves. This may be because their church condones it or because the wording of the prayers used says exactly that, regardless of what some theologians somewhere might say by way of clarification.

More than a million people--clergy and laity both-- signed a petition to the Vatican to have the Pope use his "infallible" power by proclaiming Mary the co-redemptrix of the world. You know the meaning of the term, I assume.

Why on Earth would the Eastern Orthodox petition the Bishop of Rome to use infallibility to declare a dogma? We're not in Communion, and his "infallibility" is one of the primary reasons.

For anyone still reading and who still has ears to hear, here it is definitely: Orthodox Christians do not believe that Mary is responsible for our eternal salvation. However, she is the source of Christ (not His eternal self, but He-Who-Came-To-Earth, yes), Who is our eternal salvation. We honor her, in this prayer and other ways, for this role. Another prayer says this same thing in a longer way: "For thou hast born the Savior of our souls."

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Why wouldn't you? Through Adam and Eve's disobedience we all suffer the consequences of sin...death. Through Mary's obedience, we have Christ...and life eternal! Christ was not born from Peter or Paul...just as Eve was the mother of us all and brought death into humanity, so Mary, through Christ, is the mother of us all and brought eternal life (Christ) to humanity!

Mary didn't do that, God did. Mary was God's servant, nothing more.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Mat 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

May God be gracious to us all.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Pro 12:17
He that speaketh truth sheweth forth righteousness: but a false witness deceit.

Pro 14:5
A faithful witness will not lie: but a false witness will utter lies.

Pro 19:5
A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall not escape.

Pro 19:9
A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish.

Pro 21:28
A false witness shall perish: but the man that heareth speaketh constantly.

Pro 25:18
A man that beareth false witness against his neighbour is a maul, and a sword, and a sharp arrow.

May God be gracious to us all.

 

[Thekla]

Mary didn't do that, God did. Mary was God's servant, nothing more.

To quote ArmyMatt:

I guess St Jude is telling folks to be blasphemers too: And on some have compassion, making a distinction;[d] 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,[e] hating even the garment defiled by the flesh

and St Paul is one too I guess: I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

and here he as again in 1 Corinthians: For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

and in Romans: if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.


wait....wait.....maybe, it's the meaning of the word "save" and the context.......maybe we should factor that in before we see what is blasphemy and what is not.....maybe......?

If the prayer is blasphemy, it is the blasphemy of Paul and Jude as well.