Is this overly cynical?

[DZoolander]

 

[Stravinsk]

I suppose the best way for me to get into this subject is by example... That way I can best illustrate the types of situations that make me feel this way...

I know a couple... She's 30, he's about 32. They've been together for 16 years. She got pregnant by him at 14 - and had the child. They "dated" for another 3 years afterward - until they were 18 - and they "did the right thing" and got married. In the 12 years since - they've had 2 more children (for a total of 3).

It would not be an exaggeration for me to say that he's spent the whole time that they've been together being a total scumbag - on pretty much every level. He insults her - he calls her stupid - he says she's fat and unattractive (she's mildly chubby...by no means "fat") - he's cheated on her numerous times - he constantly degrades her and trashes her self esteem - he calls her hideous names - he's been physically abusive - etc... Basically - the worst you can imagine in a mate.

Finally - about 3 months ago - she finally got the nerve to say "I've had enough - I'm worth more than this" - and left him. Good for her - ya know?

Now - of course - he's "found Jesus" - and he's pulling the "God hates divorce" card.

...and ya know - that kind of stuff makes me cringe.

Ya know - my perspective is a little different than most other Christians... I frankly think divorce is sometimes a great thing.

You know what God hates also? You being a scumbag. You certainly didn't factor that into the equation for the past 15 years - ya know? When it was to your advantage - to heck with God...however when it actually has an impact upon you...now you're lecturing on what God wants?

I often wonder what percentage of "marital negotiations" like this are truly righteous - and what percentage are simply crappy people opportunistically bringing God into the mix as a last refuge to try and retain control of their partners once things have spiraled beyond their control.

Can God change hearts? Sure. However - I don't think that God changes the hearts of the unwilling.

It would be one thing if (say in the above case) the guy said...

"You know, I'm so sorry for what I did. I've been an idiot. You were perfectly right to leave...and I think that you did the best thing in doing so. I love you - and I love our children. Tell me what I can do to help in this period of transition - but rest assured I will not pressure you. I will do whatever is necessary to help - while I work on getting myself together with God.

If you want to leave - I understand and I respect that. I hope, however, that things are fixable. I won't date...and I will respect your space. When you do come to a decision, however, please let me know. I will support whatever your decision is - either way."

...and then truly behave accordingly.

I mean - if you're truly repentant for what you've done - and if you truly love the other person - I think that's what you ought to do. Sometimes you've gotta pay the piper for your crappy behavior - ya know?

...and there's not a bit of coercive "You're a sinner" nonsense thrown into that.

But that's never how it goes. Like with my friend - within 3-4 days of leaving the house - he's on the phone with her admonishing her on "sin" - and how "God hates divorce" - etc.

In cases like that - I have to admit - I'd like to see a divorce. I don't believe that people like that have changed. I simply see it as continued manipulation from an opportunistic and manipulative person. I see it as a perversion of the Word.

I dunno. Is that overly cynical of me?

In a word, no. The man you are describing is not being a husband - ring, vows, legal documents or not. All marriages have some problems, and all people make mistakes and need to be forgiven - but this is different. It is not legal documents and rings and one time vows that make a marriage - and that is what he is using as an excuse to keep her prisoner.

This man is not loving his wife and as such *he* has already left the marriage contract by multiple, unrepentant offences. What is left is some signed documents, gold rings and broken promises that mean diddly squat.

 

[HuntingMan]

Dearly Beloved,

Please listen to your heart and pray to the Father for guidance. If you have a pastor, I urge you to go to him, because the advice you are getting from this forum is preposterous. Remember, "Whom God has joined together, let no man put asunder." Any advice that does not line up with the Word is not worth taking heed to. This decision should be between you and your spouse and God and/or you spiritual leader. You both will know if it is God or not. If you are truly living your life for God, then He will be with you, always.

God Bless,
PWinChrist

Funny because your views seem to put Paul at odds with Jesus directly because Paul said TO allow the unbeliever to 'put asunder' (CHORIZO, same word as in the gospels).


"Let not man Put Asunder" vs "let the unbeliever depart"
Jesus versus Paul ?
By WmTipton


Assertions/Conclusions of this Article

Here we will show that not only can one put asunder a marriage (that its possible), but Paul even gives instruction to do just that in certain cases. These seemingly different statements ("Let not man Put Asunder" vs "let the unbeliever depart")are actually about the same exact thing...putting asunder/Chorizo...as proven very conclusively by the greek.


Supporting Evidence

1.0
There is an errant teaching out there that claims that when Jesus said 'let not man put asunder' regarding marriage, that He 'meant' man CANNOT put asunder.

L: “When God joins two together, they are now ONE. What GOD joins, man CANNOT separate”

What we will show briefly in this article that there IS an occurance in scripture where it is shown absolutely that man can indeed 'put asunder' what God has joined together.
See 'put asunder' in each of these passages?

So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate(G5563-CHORIZO)."
(Mat 19:6 EMTV)

(Mar 10:9) 'and the two shall become one flesh'; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has united together, let not man separate(G5563-CHORIZO)."
(Mar 10:8-9 EMTV)

Bear in mind that, in the context these are in, Jesus and the pharisees are discussing putting away of a wife there in BOTH of those passages. The context of 'put asunder' is putting away of a marriage/wife, nothing less.
Jesus is CLEARLY discussing not putting asunder of this 'one flesh' that is being spoken of there.

The word is (G5563)chorizo and it only appears a few times in scripture.

G5563
χωρίζω
chōrizō
Thayer Definition:
1) to separate, divide, part, put asunder, to separate one’s self from, to depart
1a) to leave a husband or wife
1a) of divorce
1b) to depart, go away

That word 'put asunder' is the EXACT same word for "depart" in 1 cor 7:11

(1Co 7:11) But and if she depart(G5563), let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

...in other words, Paul has just said this woman has done the exact thing that some claim that Jesus said men CANNOT do....'put asunder'.

Notice Paul makes no claim that she 'cannot' put asunder (depart), but clearly presents that IF she DOES do so, then this is the situation....she is to remain "agamos" (literally "UNmarried").
*IF* putting asunder were IMPOSSIBLE for man to do...then why doesnt Paul REstate (*IF* that were Jesus actual meaning) this fact ?
WHY does he simply say *IF* she puts asunder then ...... ?
*IF* no man can put asunder, then Paul makes absolutely no sense here whatsoever. He should have simply stated that it was impossible to do so.
The word in question pretty much just means to "place room between", "depart" or to "separate"...its not some magical phrase that Jesus used to make a marriage bond unbreakable...

What I find striking is that Paul could have used a number of other choices in demonstrating that this woman had left her husband...but chose the one word that was used in rendering Jesus' words about putting asunder.
Was it coincedence or intentional? Was Paul literally reaching out and using the one word that would make it clear that putting asunder IS indeed possible?
We wont know until that day, for sure...but we do know now that regardless of what some say, that Paul has shown that man CAN 'put asunder'....that is factual.
Certainly a call to reconcile is made to the believers...but this doesnt negate what is clearly presented in Gods word....man CAN indeed put asunder (separate) by Pauls own words.


2.0
Now that its been established that man can indeed ‘put asunder’ (chorizo) a marriage, we move on to something even more astounding. Clear instruction for the believer to actually allow the unbelieving spouse to ‘put asunder’ the marriage.

Heres a very remarkable passage that blows L’s statement above, that man CANNOT separate right out of the water. And not only that, it is our very own Paul giving INSTRUCTION for this believer to let it be so.

1Co 7:15 KJV But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

Remember “chorizo”G5563 our word from above ? Can you guess what greek word ‘depart’ there is rendered from ?
You got it...the very same ‘chorizo’ (put asunder from Jesus’ statement ‘let not man put asunder”) is right there in Paul own instruction to let the unbeliever do.

So we not only see absolute proof that man CAN put asunder a marriage, but we now have Paul even telling the believer to let the unbeliever do so !
This hardly sounds like a ‘cannot’ situation to me.

Now, of course this is not our Lords desire for marriage that it would ever have to be ended, but clearly He had enought forsight to show Paul to let the believer do EXACTLY what He Himself had told man not to do.

Why?
Because Jesus knows that no matter what we do as believers, there will always be unbelieving spouses who will not honor the covenant of marriage.


3.0

As we can see here in this passage, the believing wife who has departed (chorizo) her believing husband is considered 'agamos'.....'unmarried'.

(1Co 7:10 KJV) And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart(chorizo)from her husband:
(1Co 7:11 KJV) But and if she depart(chorizo), let her remain unmarried(agamos), or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

Logically carrying this 'agamos' over to this passage where this unbeliever also has departed the marriage its quite easy to conclude that this person would also be deemed as 'agamos' (unmarried)

(1Co 7:15 KJV) But if the unbelieving depart(chorizo), , let him depart(chorizo), . A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

in the former case where both are believers there is commandment to remain UNmarried or reconcile.
In the latter case tho, where one is unequally yoked, Paul clearly states that he is speaking, not the Lord, in this matter.
To these Paul gives concession not given to those who are equally yoked with another believer.
"BUT to the REST"....to these who are unequally yoked, Paul says quite plainly that they are not in bondage to that union where it has been put asunder.

4.0
Another point of interest is in verse 7:11 where it says 'let her remain unmarried or reconcile to her husband" the actual greek means 'let her remain unmarried or to the man let her be being conciliated"
It is often pushed that the use of 'her husband' there means that she is still married to the man, but that is not proven from the actual Greek at all. The greek word for 'man' is also used for 'husband'.
Paul used 'agamos' to describe this woman for a reason.

 

[ShainaBrina]

Sounds like he's just found a new way to abuse and control her to me.

An abusive partner can take new information learned through counseling or workshops and use that knowledge and language to further emotionally abuse their spouse. In this case it's religion

 

[mkgal1]

Sounds like he's just found a new way to abuse and control her to me.

An abusive partner can take new information learned through counseling or workshops and use that knowledge and language to further emotionally abuse their spouse. In this case it's religion

QFT

 

[DZoolander]

Ehhh - update - she went back to him.

Of course.

...and of course - he's being a scumbag again.

Ya know - I'm pretty cynical about people's resolves when it comes to this kinda thing. Unfortunately - people rarely mean it when they say "I'm leaving". For all intents and purposes - with most people - "I'm leaving" is nothing more than a threat they make hoping it will scare the other person into behaving themselves. They really have no intention of leaving...and truth be known...the other person has no intention of changing.

Rarely does anyone's situation actually change in life. Most people lack the courage to actually change it.

Ya know? lol

I remember my dad giving me advice as a kid about this kinda thing. "Never give people relationship advice. Nobody ever takes it. All it will do is either breed frustration in them because they feel embarrassed - or it will breed frustration in you because they don't really want your opinion."

Too true.

 

[eatenbylocusts]

Sometimes people need to leave a couple of times before they do it for real. I broke up with one person 3 times before it stuck. And I think you do need to be careful about the relationship advice and maybe just phrase things in a certain way so it doesn't come back to haunt you if they get together. I did consider what a few different people told me about the guy I broke up with 3 times. It made me feel better about the ultimate decision.

 

[hisbloodformysins]

I suppose the best way for me to get into this subject is by example... That way I can best illustrate the types of situations that make me feel this way...

I know a couple... She's 30, he's about 32. They've been together for 16 years. She got pregnant by him at 14 - and had the child. They "dated" for another 3 years afterward - until they were 18 - and they "did the right thing" and got married. In the 12 years since - they've had 2 more children (for a total of 3).

It would not be an exaggeration for me to say that he's spent the whole time that they've been together being a total scumbag - on pretty much every level. He insults her - he calls her stupid - he says she's fat and unattractive (she's mildly chubby...by no means "fat") - he's cheated on her numerous times - he constantly degrades her and trashes her self esteem - he calls her hideous names - he's been physically abusive - etc... Basically - the worst you can imagine in a mate.

Finally - about 3 months ago - she finally got the nerve to say "I've had enough - I'm worth more than this" - and left him. Good for her - ya know?

Now - of course - he's "found Jesus" - and he's pulling the "God hates divorce" card.

...and ya know - that kind of stuff makes me cringe.

Ya know - my perspective is a little different than most other Christians... I frankly think divorce is sometimes a great thing.

You know what God hates also? You being a scumbag. You certainly didn't factor that into the equation for the past 15 years - ya know? When it was to your advantage - to heck with God...however when it actually has an impact upon you...now you're lecturing on what God wants?

I often wonder what percentage of "marital negotiations" like this are truly righteous - and what percentage are simply crappy people opportunistically bringing God into the mix as a last refuge to try and retain control of their partners once things have spiraled beyond their control.

Can God change hearts? Sure. However - I don't think that God changes the hearts of the unwilling.

It would be one thing if (say in the above case) the guy said...

"You know, I'm so sorry for what I did. I've been an idiot. You were perfectly right to leave...and I think that you did the best thing in doing so. I love you - and I love our children. Tell me what I can do to help in this period of transition - but rest assured I will not pressure you. I will do whatever is necessary to help - while I work on getting myself together with God.

If you want to leave - I understand and I respect that. I hope, however, that things are fixable. I won't date...and I will respect your space. When you do come to a decision, however, please let me know. I will support whatever your decision is - either way."

...and then truly behave accordingly.

I mean - if you're truly repentant for what you've done - and if you truly love the other person - I think that's what you ought to do. Sometimes you've gotta pay the piper for your crappy behavior - ya know?

...and there's not a bit of coercive "You're a sinner" nonsense thrown into that.

But that's never how it goes. Like with my friend - within 3-4 days of leaving the house - he's on the phone with her admonishing her on "sin" - and how "God hates divorce" - etc.

In cases like that - I have to admit - I'd like to see a divorce. I don't believe that people like that have changed. I simply see it as continued manipulation from an opportunistic and manipulative person. I see it as a perversion of the Word.

I dunno. Is that overly cynical of me?

Amen