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Is this for real?

sfs

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1) baboon was a bit more different in its original creation.
Which doesn't explain why the differences still look like mutations. Also, it's five times as different, not a bit more different.
2) babbon is older than both chimp and human so its more different (since it get more mutations over time).
Which doesn't explain why baboon is as similar to macaque as human is to chimp if it's been accumulating mutations for five times as long.

Yes, you did give me those explanations, but neither actually explained the data.
 
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xianghua

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Which doesn't explain why the differences still look like mutations.
because most of this difference is indeed the result of (neutral) mutations. but some are the result of the original state.


Also, it's five times as different, not a bit more different.

comparing 5% with about 1% (out of 100%) its a bit different.


Which doesn't explain why baboon is as similar to macaque as human is to chimp if it's been accumulating mutations for five times as long

its possible that baboon and macaque evolved from the same original "kind" so they basically the same creature, and this is why they are very similar. there are also other explanations i can think about.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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DogmaHunter

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The bible is more valuable to mankind than all the science books ever written. :bow:

I'll go ahead and state the obvious: this is utter nonsense.
Perhaps I'll get on board with the idea of it being one of the most (not THE most) impactfull, in terms of shaping our western society and culture. It was dominant for the past 2000 years so obviously it has had impact. To the point of perhaps even not being able to understand our culture's history, language and even literature without some basic knowledge about the judeo-christian tradition.

But valuable? Nah.

Of course you have to read it. ;)

Yes. Not because I had to, though.
I also read the quran and some other mythology.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Which doesn't explain why baboon is as similar to macaque as human is to chimp if it's been accumulating mutations for five times as long.

Maybe if you for one didn't snip out 1/3 of the genome of human and chimpanzee, then cut out what is not similar, then align only the similar parts, it wouldn't be that similar. Something that isn't done when comparing baboon and macaque.....

Hmmm, did that ever occur to you, why you need to take out 1/3 and then snip and rearrange it to make it appear similar while you don't need to do that at all with a baboon and macaque to make them similar?????
 
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DogmaHunter

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Maybe if you for one didn't snip out 1/3 of the genome of human and chimpanzee, then cut out what is not similar, then align only the similar parts, it wouldn't be that similar. Something that isn't done when comparing baboon and macaque.....

Hmmm, did that ever occur to you, why you need to take out 1/3 and then snip and rearrange it to make it appear similar while you don't need to do that at all with a baboon and macaque to make them similar?????
How arrogant can you be.

Do you realise who you are talking to about the chimp genome?
 
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Justatruthseeker

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How arrogant can you be.

Do you realise who you are talking to about the chimp genome?

Do I care who he thinks he is?????

What's the matter, the truth hurt????

Go ahead, convince me they didn't do just that to the human and chimp genome while not doing the same thing to the baboon and Macaque genomes???

Well convince me.....

Can't, can you, and neither will he, without lying......
 
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sfs

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Maybe if you for one didn't snip out 1/3 of the genome of human and chimpanzee, then cut out what is not similar, then align only the similar parts, it wouldn't be that similar. Something that isn't done when comparing baboon and macaque.....
You really have not the faintest clue in the world what you're talking about, do you?
 
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sfs

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Do I care who he thinks he is?????

What's the matter, the truth hurt????

Go ahead, convince me they didn't do just that to the human and chimp genome while not doing the same thing to the baboon and Macaque genomes???
For those who actually care about the truth, the numbers I quoted were from here, and were obtained by running exactly the same software for all of the genomes.
 
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sfs

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because most of this difference is indeed the result of (neutral) mutations. but some are the result of the original state.
Here's the deal: You have said that the genetic differences between these species look like mutations because they are the result of mutations. You then have to explain how humans and chimps have only acquired enough mutations to differ by 1%, as did baboons and macaques, while humans and baboons acquired enough mutations to differ by 5%. And you have to do it with one explanation. You not allowed to flip-flop between explanations, depending on which comparison you happen to be looking at.

So try again: What's the fraction of human DNA that has been changed by these single-base mutations? What's the fraction of the chimpanzee genome? Of the baboon genome?
comparing 5% with about 1% (out of 100%) its a bit different.
If you just compare 5% and 1%, the former is five times as large at the latter. If you compare them in the context of 100%, the former is still five times as large as the latter. You're supposed to be explaining that difference.
its possible that baboon and macaque evolved from the same original "kind" so they basically the same creature, and this is why they are very similar.
So species that differ by 1% genetically can be the same kind. Like, you know, humans and chimpanzees.
there are also other explanations i can think about.
Even one that actually explained the data is all you need.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Here's the deal: You have said that the genetic differences between these species look like mutations because they are the result of mutations. You then have to explain how humans and chimps have only acquired enough mutations to differ by 1%, as did baboons and macaques, while humans and baboons acquired enough mutations to differ by 5%. And you have to do it with one explanation. You not allowed to flip-flop between explanations, depending on which comparison you happen to be looking at.

You then have to explain why every child born has around 60 new mutations compared with their parents and yet this accumulated mutation has only made humans less than your claimed 99% for humans and chimps???

Are chimps born with these same numbers of mutations? We must assume so I guess since we are only as you claim 1% different, so the random mutations must be randomly identical across generations.......

Or (supposing evolution is true - and I am going against truth here) most of the mutations are neutral and so have no overall affect, while the mutations in baboons had more effect.... Just because a mutation is neutral in one animal, does not mean a mutation will be neutral in another.

And isn't the 1% a little optimistic???

"The first comprehensive comparison of the genetic blueprints of humans and chimpanzees shows our closest living relatives share perfect identity with 96 percent of our DNA sequence, an international research consortium reported today."

And as stated, that is after you delete the non-coding regions. The coding regions share only 29% similarity..... "At the protein level, 29 percent of genes code for the same amino sequences in chimps and humans." So in the region which actually codes for proteins, what makes each animal distinct, we in reality are only 29% similar.

And Y chromosome? Let's see, how did the authors put it?

Chimpanzee and human Y chromosomes are remarkably divergent in structure and gene content

"Indeed, at 6 million years of separation, the difference in MSY gene content in chimpanzee and human is more comparable to the difference in autosomal gene content in chicken and human, at 310 million years of separation."

And what about differences between human men and women? "If we look at base pairs, the difference between men and women would be 59 million divided by 3.2 billion or about 1.8%. This translates to men and women being 98.2% the same. Men and women are actually a bit more similar as the Y chromosome has about 5% of its DNA sequences in common with the X chromosome. This would change the number to 98.4% the same. If the 98.7% number for chimp-human similarity is right, then by this measure, men and women are less alike than are female chimps and women."

Now, all of you are certainly allowed to believe that humans and chimps differ less than male and female humans if you like...... Or you can simply accept the truth and that they cut and snip, pick and choose what to include when they compare human and chimp genomes......

Believe your mother is further related from you than a chimp is if you like. Just don't expect me to fall for that number playing game.......
 
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Bugeyedcreepy

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its possible that baboon and macaque evolved from the same original "kind" so they basically the same creature, and this is why they are very similar. there are also other explanations i can think about.
Well, you'd better propose those other explanations because the Human/Chimp lineages are analogous to the Baboon/Macaques, and if you're suggesting that Baboons and Macaques are from the same "original" kind, then you're also suggesting that Humans and Chimps are from the same "original" kind too.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Well, you'd better propose those other explanations because the Human/Chimp lineages are analogous to the Baboon/Macaques, and if you're suggesting that Baboons and Macaques are from the same "original" kind, then you're also suggesting that Humans and Chimps are from the same "original" kind too.

Just a number playing game....

And what about differences between human men and women? "If we look at base pairs, the difference between men and women would be 59 million divided by 3.2 billion or about 1.8%. This translates to men and women being 98.2% the same. Men and women are actually a bit more similar as the Y chromosome has about 5% of its DNA sequences in common with the X chromosome. This would change the number to 98.4% the same. If the 98.7% number for chimp-human similarity is right, then by this measure, men and women are less alike than are female chimps and women."

Now, all of you are certainly allowed to believe that humans and chimps differ less than male and female humans if you like...... Or you can simply accept the truth and that they cut and snip, pick and choose what to include when they compare human and chimp genomes......

Believe your mother is further related from you than a chimp is if you like. Just don't expect me to fall for that number playing game.......
 
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DogmaHunter

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Do I care who he thinks he is?????

Clearly, you don't.

What's the matter, the truth hurt????

Apparantly, seeing how seemingly bent out of shape you are.

Go ahead, convince me they didn't do just that to the human and chimp genome while not doing the same thing to the baboon and Macaque genomes???

Well convince me.....

Can't, can you, and neither will he, without lying......

Pre-emptive accusation of lying. Awesome.


ps: you're talking to a guy who actually was part of the team that sequenced the chimp genome. And you're trying to school him on chimp DNA. Just saying.
 
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Bungle_Bear

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Well convince me.....

Can't, can you, and neither will he
The end of that sentence is superfluous. There is literally nothing anyone could say or demonstrate to you that would convince you, is there? I doubt even a voice from heaven could convince you.

Romans 1:22 Take a look at yourself and @sfs . Who is truly wise, and who simply believes he is wise?
 
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tas8831

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Funny, no one has yet shown a new allele being produced that was not a copy of something that already existed....

Claim supported.....
Are you really still trying to pretend you understand genetics?


For pete's sake - for YEARS you thought allele was "allie."

Then you thought alleles came from reproduction.

Then you thought they came from hybridization.

Then I showed you MULTIPLE sources that explained where alleles came from.

And here you are, months later, STILL making this same, dare I say, stupid remark about a copy of 'something that already existed'? What does that naive nonsense even mean?

OF COURSE it is a "copy" of something else - ALL of ALL living things' DNA is a copy of a copy of something that already existed!

DOY.

And ALLELES comes from MUTATIONS to the 'original' template.


Poe? Troll? Dunning-Kruger effect?
 
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tas8831

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You really have not the faintest clue in the world what you're talking about, do you?
The worst part is, he simply ignores the many corrections to his silly, erroneous claims, and reiterates them (all of them, apparently) over and over as if he had never been corrected.

A weird mental state.
 
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xianghua

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Here's the deal: You have said that the genetic differences between these species look like mutations because they are the result of mutations. You then have to explain how humans and chimps have only acquired enough mutations to differ by 1%, as did baboons and macaques, while humans and baboons acquired enough mutations to differ by 5%. And you have to do it with one explanation. You not allowed to flip-flop between explanations, depending on which comparison you happen to be looking at.

So try again: What's the fraction of human DNA that has been changed by these single-base mutations? What's the fraction of the chimpanzee genome? Of the baboon genome?

If you just compare 5% and 1%, the former is five times as large at the latter. If you compare them in the context of 100%, the former is still five times as large as the latter. You're supposed to be explaining that difference.

So species that differ by 1% genetically can be the same kind. Like, you know, humans and chimpanzees.

Even one that actually explained the data is all you need.

i will stick with my second explanation for now. so under this scenario human and chimp are in general different because of neutral mutations. baboon and macaque are closer because they are basically the same creature. now, where do you see any problem with this scenario? we can see it clearly in this figure:
Primate+phylogenetic+tree.jpg


(image from Distribuzione di sequenze nel genoma umano - ppt video online scaricare)
 
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sfs

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i will stick with my second explanation for now. so under this scenario human and chimp are in general different because of neutral mutations. baboon and macaque are closer because they are basically the same creature. now, where do you see any problem with this scenario? we can see it clearly in this figure:
That figure shows common descent, which is what you're disputing. You haven't answered the question(s): What's the fraction of human DNA that has been changed by these single-base mutations? What's the fraction of the chimpanzee genome? Of the baboon genome?
 
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