Is this a sin???

Eian

New Member
Feb 22, 2018
4
1
36
Minneapolis
✟15,382.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
In the bible, it's not right to have relations with a divorced woman. I have a sibling who is have a relation with a woman who left her partner and child to be with my brother. I am against his decision to be with her. But he says that the woman and her man at that time was "never married" and also have a child too. They never had a marriage ceremony. So does that mean she dont count as a divorced woman. Or does the same stamdard apply because they had a family? Please help. My sibling is denying.
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: com7fy8

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,521
16,866
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟771,800.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Marriage is a covenant. That is a solemn agreement between 2 or more parties with witnesses.

So if they never said vows to each other in front of witnesses, never signed a marriage license, or never agreed they were married in the sight of God and never told everyone they were a married couple (commonlaw) then they were NEVER MARRIED. She is not divorced.

End of story.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mennonite mom
Upvote 0

A_Thinker

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 23, 2004
11,911
9,064
Midwest
✟953,784.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In the bible, it's not right to have relations with a divorced woman. I have a sibling who is have a relation with a woman who left her partner and child to be with my brother. I am against his decision to be with her. But he says that the woman and her man at that time was "never married" and also have a child too. They never had a marriage ceremony. So does that mean she dont count as a divorced woman. Or does the same stamdard apply because they had a family? Please help. My sibling is denying.

If ths woman was never married, then she can't be divorced.

Like you, I feel that the circumstance is more morally complex than that, ... but I doubt that you can convince your brother of that ...
 
  • Agree
Reactions: frater_domus
Upvote 0

Theodoric

Active Member
Feb 21, 2018
257
234
71
Tennessee
✟18,794.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
In the bible, it's not right to have relations with a divorced woman. I have a sibling who is have a relation with a woman who left her partner and child to be with my brother. I am against his decision to be with her. But he says that the woman and her man at that time was "never married" and also have a child too. They never had a marriage ceremony. So does that mean she dont count as a divorced woman. Or does the same stamdard apply because they had a family? Please help. My sibling is denying.

I'm not sure where you get the part about having relations with a divorced woman. Be more specific maybe?

But what I'm reading flags something much more important than some obscure verse in Leviticus. She left her child to be with your brother?

If I'm reading that correctly, he needs to flee like the wind.

As a side note, having "relations" outside of marriage is a sin called "fornication". If you're all in against sin, start there.
 
Upvote 0

Eian

New Member
Feb 22, 2018
4
1
36
Minneapolis
✟15,382.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
I'm not sure where you get the part about having relations with a divorced woman. Be more specific maybe?

But what I'm reading flags something much more important than some obscure verse in Leviticus. She left her child to be with your brother?

If I'm reading that correctly, he needs to flee like the wind.

As a side note, having "relations" outside of marriage is a sin called "fornication". If you're all in against sin, start there.

Luke 16:18
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,394
16,205
Flyoverland
✟1,242,127.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
In the bible, it's not right to have relations with a divorced woman. I have a sibling who is have a relation with a woman who left her partner and child to be with my brother. I am against his decision to be with her. But he says that the woman and her man at that time was "never married" and also have a child too. They never had a marriage ceremony. So does that mean she dont count as a divorced woman. Or does the same stamdard apply because they had a family? Please help. My sibling is denying.
Your sibling might technically be right. Still, the baggage of her previous 'relationship' should be unpacked a bit and thought through before he jumps in. Plenty of red flags even if divorce may not technically be one of them.
 
Upvote 0

Kit Sigmon

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2016
2,032
1,285
USA
✟76,189.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
In the bible, it's not right to have relations with a divorced woman. I have a sibling who is have a relation with a woman who left her partner and child to be with my brother. I am against his decision to be with her. But he says that the woman and her man at that time was "never married" and also have a child too. They never had a marriage ceremony. So does that mean she dont count as a divorced woman. Or does the same stamdard apply because they had a family? Please help. My sibling is denying.

Shack up relationships ain't marriages.
Committing sexual immorality or fornication don't make a marriage...
even if you have children by the person you be having sexual relations with
that don't mean they are married.
God established marriage and said marriage and the marriage bed is to be
held in honor by all...ref:Hebrew 13:4.
There be people (believers and unsaved) who don't care what
God or the Bible say, they do whatever they want to do.
It is sad thing that a parent would leave they child to pursue
relationship with someone else but I know many who have done that.
 
Upvote 0

Monna

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2017
1,195
961
75
Oicha Beni
✟105,254.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
;)
So if they never said vows to each other in front of witnesses, never signed a marriage license, or never agreed they were married in the sight of God and never told everyone they were a married couple (commonlaw)

Does one have to fulfill all of these criteria to be married? If so, Adam and Eve may not have been married: no evidence of vows said to each other in front of witnesses; never signed a marriage license, never (as far as we know) told "everyone" they were a married couple. Does this mean though that "they were living in sin?"
 
Upvote 0

A_Thinker

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 23, 2004
11,911
9,064
Midwest
✟953,784.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Dave-W said: So if they never said vows to each other in front of witnesses, never signed a marriage license, or never agreed they were married in the sight of God and never told everyone they were a married couple (commonlaw)

Monna said:;)

Does one have to fulfill all of these criteria to be married? If so, Adam and Eve may not have been married: no evidence of vows said to each other in front of witnesses; never signed a marriage license, never (as far as we know) told "everyone" they were a married couple. Does this mean though that "they were living in sin?"

Is shacking up and having a child marriage ?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

dreadnought

Lip service isn't really service.
Site Supporter
Aug 4, 2012
7,730
3,466
71
Reno, Nevada
✟313,356.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Methodist
Marital Status
Celibate
In the bible, it's not right to have relations with a divorced woman. I have a sibling who is have a relation with a woman who left her partner and child to be with my brother. I am against his decision to be with her. But he says that the woman and her man at that time was "never married" and also have a child too. They never had a marriage ceremony. So does that mean she dont count as a divorced woman. Or does the same stamdard apply because they had a family? Please help. My sibling is denying.
There is a time when divorce is acceptable, mentioned in Matthew 19:9. However, it sounds to me like your brother is getting himself into some mischief.
 
Upvote 0

Sketcher

Born Imperishable
Feb 23, 2004
38,984
9,401
✟380,559.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Is "becoming one flesh" marriage in God's eyes? Having a child together usually means having a physical union.
Since Jesus lists fornication and adultery as separate sins in Matthew 15:19 and Mark 7:21, apparently not. If becoming one flesh automatically meant marriage, then there is no logical room for the sin of fornication to exist, there would only be marriage and adultery.
 
Upvote 0

A_Thinker

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 23, 2004
11,911
9,064
Midwest
✟953,784.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Since Jesus lists fornication and adultery as separate sins in Matthew 15:19 and Mark 7:21, apparently not. If becoming one flesh automatically meant marriage, then there is no logical room for the sin of fornication to exist, there would only be marriage and adultery.

Good point ...
 
Upvote 0

Eian

New Member
Feb 22, 2018
4
1
36
Minneapolis
✟15,382.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Since Jesus lists fornication and adultery as separate sins in Matthew 15:19 and Mark 7:21, apparently not. If becoming one flesh automatically meant marriage, then there is no logical room for the sin of fornication to exist, there would only be marriage and adultery.

I can say the same thing to those who choose not to marry and have a family? They can create a family and leave each other and it won't be consider adultery.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

EmethAlethia

Newbie
Oct 5, 2014
404
107
62
✟28,633.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
According to scripture, consensual sex = getting married with no possibility of divorce. It is also fornication. Something the religious leaders threw in Jesus face. "We were not born of fornication."

Adultery is another can of worms. Our modern "Christian" definition is not what the O.T. definition was. David had at least 24 wives (Possibly as high as the upper 30's) and had kids with all of them. God says he was guilty of adultery precisely once. When he took the wife of another man still living.

While Solomon took almost a thousand wives and concubines and had children with them, guess how many times he committed adultery. If you guessed 999 times, then you aren't using God's definition but modern man's definition. According to scripture he never committed adultery. He did take foreign wives though and God did reprove him for that sin.

Scenario for you... a man has a wife. His brother has a wife. His brother dies without an heir. What does God command the other brother to do? God commands him to raise up an heir for his brother, married or not. If he has a child with her before he has a child with his own wife that child becomes the heir for both brothers. That is the situation Ruth was put in.

Definitions for inappropriate contentea/fornication: Fornication is inappropriate behavior with animals, premarital sex, adultery and homosexuality.

No it's not watching dirty movies or seeing dirty pictures. That's our modern English word we created much later on. We can't shove that meaning back into the bible any more than I can ask how big an air hose the Holy Spirit needs to function or how big the Holy Spirit's compressor is.

The word for spirit is pneuma (Also translated air.) We created our modern word pneumatic (Air powered) from that Greek word. Like I said, we can't shove modern English meanings back into bible words. it doesn't work.

One more. There is a passage that says that if a man looks (Blepo: To dwell intently on.) on a woman for the purpose of dwelling on his lust, he has committed adultery with her in his heart.

Issues. 1.) God chose the only word available in Greek for married woman. 2.) God didn't choose the word for fornication, but rather a word that REQUIRES that a woman married to another man is the one present in the room. Adultery.

All of these things listed in this passage are pointing out the prerequisites for the actual sin is where we need to stop. For example: Don't get angry and you won't murder someone, and don't sit in the same room with a woman married to another man and dwell on lust and you won't commit adultery ... Those are the meanings, nothing more and nothing less. Everyone that wants to change the meanings into something much more broad has a private doctrinal ax to grind and he is butchering the meaning of God's word to do it.

Problems arise when we don't stick to the meaning of the words and the context. Those that would create much more out of the previous verse will have a cow when we look at the next passage.

1Co 7:1 Now concerning the things about which you wrote, it is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2 But because of fornication(Includes the premarital sex concept), each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband.

So, from the context, what kind of touching is going on that leads to fornication. Is that "touching" a sin? (Sorry. Trick question. According to the scriptures, whatever is not from faith is sin, so if you believe eating turnips is a sin it is for you.) Let me rephrase that question: If you are touching in such a way that there is an increasing danger that you will become engaged in premarital sex are you already sinning according to scripture? Is that what the bible says and means or just your "feelings"? Yes, until your "feelings" change you are under the whatever is not from faith is sin category.

Here is the standard for determining if you should get married in the N.T.. Do you have self-control or not? Are you in danger of committing fornication or not?

1Co 7:9 But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with lust.

Remember, we are talking about needing to get married to prevent fornication because you both don't have self control... because you are touching ...

Have you sinned? Yes, according to scripture.

1Co 7:28 But if you marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. Yet such will have trouble in this life, and I am trying to spare you.

Want it a little clearer? Context and flow of thought, meaning of words as they are used throughout scripture and in their context here confirms the interpretation. Yes, things are getting out of hand, er... into hand, and you are treading dangerous waters. You get married before having intercourse. Have you sinned in the eyes of God?

1Co 7:36 But if any man thinks that he is acting unbecomingly toward his virgin daughter, if she is past her youth, and if it must be so, let him do what he wishes, he does not sin; let her marry.

Yes I know you will probably never see that in any "Christian" church sermon. It's a shame really. The other issue is defrauding, but I have to leave some areas for you to research on your own. So the question is, if you can have things deteriorating to the point where you have to get married to prevent inappropriate contentea/fornication do you really believe that being in the same room with a single man or woman and dwelling on lust is going to be a sin? We are well past that point here people.

Lastly, further on in the N.T. God broadens the definition of adultery to the destruction of an existing marriage relationship by committing adultery (Fornication resulted in another wife) or by divorce to form another familial unit. (Familial unit = Husband, Wife/wives and all children)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Sketcher

Born Imperishable
Feb 23, 2004
38,984
9,401
✟380,559.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
I can say the same thing to those who choose not to marry and have a family? They can create a family and leave each other and it won't be consider adultery.
Well, yes. No marriage means no adultery in that case.
 
Upvote 0

EmethAlethia

Newbie
Oct 5, 2014
404
107
62
✟28,633.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Which book, chapter, and verse tells you that?

Exo 22:16 "If a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged, and lies with her, he must pay a dowry for her to be his wife. 17 "If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equal to the dowry for virgins.

Deu 22:28 "If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Sketcher

Born Imperishable
Feb 23, 2004
38,984
9,401
✟380,559.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Exo 22:16 "If a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged, and lies with her, he must pay a dowry for her to be his wife. 17 "If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equal to the dowry for virgins.

Deu 22:28 "If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.
So we have one law to the Jews in which the union clearly does not make a marriage, since the father can nullify it. And another in which the woman has no consent, in which he did not marry her, but is obligated to marry her because of what he did.* Neither of these prove that consensual sex = marriage in the Lord's eyes.

* which according to Rabbinical interpretation, the father could also cancel; traditional Jewish marriages are to be consensual by the bride as well, but the payment of the bride-price is not optional either way.
 
Upvote 0