Is this a safe haven?

[TrustAndObey]

I hope it's okay to make my points in here since it's the subfora specifically for Traditional Adventists and this isn't a debate area at all. I'm going to be discussing one of the CF rules and I hope that's okay. I haven't seen where it's a violation, so I'm thinking it's safe to do so.

Mods...if it's not okay for me to discuss a rule, please let me know so I can edit this post, instead of having it deleted completely, okay?

We obviously have a big problem in the main forum, and from what I'm noticing it always stems from Ellen White.

There are some saying she falls short of the biblical tests used to determine if someone is/was prophetic.

What exactly does that mean?

I've seen verses where John contradicts the other 3 writers of the gospels (at least it certainly appears that way....I'll give an example if you're interested), so doesn't that mean he would have to fail the tests also?

And if he wasn't prophetic....was he a messenger of satan? Or was he human?

More to the point....the Adventists that claim they no longer believe Ellen White was prophetic, do they now think she was satanic? Is there any grey where the biblical tests are concerned or is it absolutely black and white? (I'd like your thoughts on this please).

This is something we really need to discuss, at least in my opinion, because is true fellowship EVER going to be possible if the people we share our main forum with feel that EGW was satanic?

A false prophet is just that....false. God cannot have a prophet that is false, only satan can.

And the main point I'd like to make in this thread is this....one of the rules of CF is that you cannot belittle an important figure in anyone's church system.

I don't believe in being a tattle-tale but rules are rules. If we want peace and want the constant belittling to stop, shouldn't we be using our report buttons instead of being baited into constant debate?

I see this entire debate as a stumblingblock and nothing more.

I get ridiculed because I haven't read any EGW books yet (although I'm semi working on my first one), but in actuality I have always felt that it was important to know my bible first. In fact, that's exactly what EGW said to do. I couldn't test her spirit now without full knowledge of scripture anyway.

What I have done is apply the biblical tests to writers OF scripture, and honestly, it appears that some authors did contradict others. Does that totally deteriorate my faith in scripture? Absolutely not.

We are absolutely going to have to learn to deal with our fellow Adventists, and I think we need to start here. #1 we have GOT to stop letting ourselves get baited. It is absolutely a stumblingblock and I think everyone looking at the main forum would agree with me.

Amen?

 

[TrustAndObey]

The actual rule says not to ridicule an important figure in a person's denomination.

We certainly see a lot of that happening here.

 

[honorthesabbath]

Hi Lainie--thanks for the thread. And yes--the flaming and disrespecting of a prominent figure in the SDA demonination has been going on for some time in the open forum and yet it is has not been stopped.

I personally am fed up with the CONSTANT (and I do mean constant) attacks on my church and the SOP. As I noticed what you said to a certain poster--why not just leave the church quietly--why constantly attack those who disagree with YOUR 'new light'!?

Seems there is a double standard with some who whine and cry when we reject 'their' teachings--and yet claim we have no right to our interpretation!!

And I agree with you--start using the 'report' button when someone blatantly violates the rules.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Honor, let me ask you this....how would you feel about a prophet in scripture that contradicted another one of the prophetic writers? Would it completely change your views on scripture, or would you consider that the prophets were human and occasionally made mistakes?

 

[honorthesabbath]

Honor, let me ask you this....how would you feel about a prophet in scripture that contradicted another one of the prophetic writers? Would it completely change your views on scripture, or would you consider that the prophets were human and occasionally made mistakes?

Well, I know that Peter and Paul had their differences concerning scriptures. I also know that no human is perfect.

With the exception of Daniel (the bible records no notable 'sins' on his part)-we have seen the flawed characters of ALL the bible prophets.

It's interesting to note that in Daniel's visions of the future--he himself did not understand their meanings. Some parts of the prophecies were revealed to him--some weren't.

Many of Pauls writing in the NT, by his own admission, were 'not inspired' (I talk as a man). He says some things are 'tradition and not commandments'. and yet they are included as canon.

People may doubt EGW, I do not. As far as her medical writings are concerned--she is/was light years ahead of the medical community of her time and even our time for that matter. If our health message would be correctly followed-I truly believe that the prayer requests in our churches wouldn't be so full of 'healing requests'. What's the admonition? Be a DOER of the Word????

 

[TrustAndObey]

Well, I know that Peter and Paul had their differences concerning scriptures. I also know that no human is perfect.

With the exception of Daniel (the bible records no notable 'sins' on his part)-we have seen the flawed characters of ALL the bible prophets.

It's interesting to note that in Daniel's visions of the future--he himself did not understand their meanings. Some parts of the prophecies were revealed to him--some weren't.

Many of Pauls writing in the NT, by his own admission, were 'not inspired' (I talk as a man). He says some things are 'tradition and not commandments'. and yet they are included as canon.

People may doubt EGW, I do not. As far as her medical writings are concerned--she is/was light years ahead of the medical community of her time and even our time for that matter. If our health message would be correctly followed-I truly believe that the prayer requests in our churches wouldn't be so full of 'healing requests'. What's the admonition? Be a DOER of the Word????

Good post Honor!

It has always been really ironic to me that people won't address what appears to be contradictions in scripture, or they'll act surprised when I point out something from scripture....but they claim to apply the biblical tests to EGW. The irony comes in the fact that they don't know scripture well enough to do that, or at least it appears that way, and that's the very thing EGW stated...."don't you dare quote Sister White until you know your bible!"

Some people are very defensive of what appears to be contradictions in scripture, but very un-defensive when they think EGW made a contradiction. That's hypocritical, at the very least.

I see so many people get bashed when they call someone on their "truth seeking" but when you mention a possible contradiction in scripture....yikes, it's ten times worse than anything they could question about EGW's writings for sure.

I'm sticking to my original plan. I want to know the bible before I read EGW. That's what she said to do.

Honor, I mentioned something from scripture, and one member said "do you realize what you just said?" Of course I realized what I had just said...it is in scripture for the whole world to see.

So, basically, my point is that this person didn't know scripture well enough to be arguing that point, let alone "testing" anyone.

 

[thecountrydoc]

Hi Honorthesabbath,

You are 100% correct in your observations about the health message of EGW! Unfortunately most SDAs fall into the group cosidered to be fanaticals about health, or they do their best to justify their refuseal to follow correct health principals.

A funny thing just crossed my mind. Thats exactly what happens with Bible study also.

Yor brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[thecountrydoc]

Hi Lainie,

You have brought up a very good point that deserves good answers.

There two problems involved with most SDAs thinking when it comes to EGW. The first is a lack of understanding for the definition of the word prophet. The second is a desire to use her writings as a way to back up their own thinking whether it be right or wrong, or the desire to throw the baby out with the bath water because they don't want to be told they are wrong in any way by another human being. I guess it comes back to one of myold sayings. Those with the least knowlege always make the most noise.

Your brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[Jon0388g]

I hope it's okay to make my points in here since it's the subfora specifically for Traditional Adventists and this isn't a debate area at all. I'm going to be discussing one of the CF rules and I hope that's okay. I haven't seen where it's a violation, so I'm thinking it's safe to do so.

Mods...if it's not okay for me to discuss a rule, please let me know so I can edit this post, instead of having it deleted completely, okay?

We obviously have a big problem in the main forum, and from what I'm noticing it always stems from Ellen White.

There are some saying she falls short of the biblical tests used to determine if someone is/was prophetic.

What exactly does that mean?

I've seen verses where John contradicts the other 3 writers of the gospels (at least it certainly appears that way....I'll give an example if you're interested), so doesn't that mean he would have to fail the tests also?

And if he wasn't prophetic....was he a messenger of satan? Or was he human?

More to the point....the Adventists that claim they no longer believe Ellen White was prophetic, do they now think she was satanic? Is there any grey where the biblical tests are concerned or is it absolutely black and white? (I'd like your thoughts on this please).

This is something we really need to discuss, at least in my opinion, because is true fellowship EVER going to be possible if the people we share our main forum with feel that EGW was satanic?

A false prophet is just that....false. God cannot have a prophet that is false, only satan can.

And the main point I'd like to make in this thread is this....one of the rules of CF is that you cannot belittle an important figure in anyone's church system.

I don't believe in being a tattle-tale but rules are rules. If we want peace and want the constant belittling to stop, shouldn't we be using our report buttons instead of being baited into constant debate?

I see this entire debate as a stumblingblock and nothing more.

I get ridiculed because I haven't read any EGW books yet (although I'm semi working on my first one), but in actuality I have always felt that it was important to know my bible first. In fact, that's exactly what EGW said to do. I couldn't test her spirit now without full knowledge of scripture anyway.

What I have done is apply the biblical tests to writers OF scripture, and honestly, it appears that some authors did contradict others. Does that totally deteriorate my faith in scripture? Absolutely not.

We are absolutely going to have to learn to deal with our fellow Adventists, and I think we need to start here. #1 we have GOT to stop letting ourselves get baited. It is absolutely a stumblingblock and I think everyone looking at the main forum would agree with me.

Amen?

Hi "Big Sis",

I agree with you to an extent. I've also posted on this issue a while back - but it looks like it will never end. The Adventist forum seems to have more non-Adventists (or, semi-Adventist, whatever that is).


In regards to Ellen White, I am still not 100% sure. I've seen both sides of the argument, and there are both pros and cons. For example, there are troubling aspects within some of her writings, there is no getting around this fact. And, I personally feel uncomfortable when we have to show "contradictions" in the Bible in order to somehow justify Mrs White. Not only do I feel that is walking on dangerous ground, but I think this portrays the wrong picture to outsiders.

Those who are leaving/have left the church are so weary of calling her for what she is: either of God, or of the devil. She herself said there is no half-way mark in the matter, either she is sent of one, or the other: God and satan do not work in partnership. She had the guts to say it, but you rarely see someone who doubts her or discredits her work say she was a messenger of the devil.


However, the more I read her for myself, and witness what is going on in the church and the state of it today, I get this niggling feeling that she really was inspired from God. Some of what she says is so true it sometimes sends shivers down my spine. She stood in rebuke to any hint of sin, whether small or great. She spoke of satan for what he is: the father of lies. And she also has lead thousands upon thousands to Christ.


So, it seems she will be a point of contention right up until the Second Advent, unfortunately. One thing I've noticed is that she is far more popular in our main forum than our Lord and Saviour. Every other thread is primarily about her.



To yours and Honour's point: can one be lead out of Adventism by the Spirit of God? In my opinion, we have to look at this issue in a different way. By walking away from Adventism, are they walking away from Christ?

For me, the huge red light is the Sabbath. I've let my feelings be known on this and I'll say it again. Whatever "spirit" leads one into breaking any of the laws of God, is not the Holy Spirit of God. And usually the most obvious stumbling point with formers is the seventh-day. First comes EGW, then comes the Sabbath. Why should we still keep the "old covenant"? Adventism must be wrong about that also. We cannot overcome sin, we are under the "new covenant" now, and similar nonsense.


One thing EGW said about the Sabbath rings true in my ears at least. The Sabbath will be the dividing line between the loyal and the heathen in the last days. This statement is a thorn in many people's side, because it is a direct judgment on their actions. Wait and see, what is happening in the church now is surely signs of the times.





Jon

 

[TrustAndObey]

Hi Lainie,

You have brought up a very good point that deserves good answers.

There two problems involved with most SDAs thinking when it comes to EGW. The first is a lack of understanding for the definition of the word prophet. The second is a desire to use her writings as a way to back up their own thinking whether it be right or wrong, or the desire to throw the baby out with the bath water because they don't want to be told they are wrong in any way by another human being. I guess it comes back to one of myold sayings. Those with the least knowlege always make the most noise.

Your brother in Christ,
Doc

Thanks for the input Doc. I think the main problem we're facing, in our main forum, is that people are trying to find a way out of Adventism, so they start with EGW...because let's face it, she's the main reason our church gets ridiculed.

There really are fanatics in our church, and although I've never seen any in real life, I certainly do see them on this forum occasionally. It makes me cringe just as badly as the ones that hate her. They can say they don't hate her all they want, but if they don't think she's a messenger of God, then they must think she's a messenger of satan. There's no in between.

And I am seriously not bashing anyone when I say this, but I see a big lack of SCRIPTURAL knowledge. Anyone lacking in that knowledge in NO way has the capacity to test anyone. So...as I get bashed for being told I'm a "newbie" or I haven't read enough of EGW to even have an opinion....I study the bible. I truly will have the capacity to test a prophet someday, but I certainly don't have that capacity yet.

Love you Doc,
~Lainie

 

[honorthesabbath]

Jon--you hit it just right. As I read the scriptures, the one thing that stands out in my mind of a true prophet is that they ALWAYS are pointing the people back to OBEDIENCE to God thru the commandments!

Be it idolatry(usually the biggy) or Sabbath breaking-it was always the ACTIONS of the people that brought the hammer down on their heads. But before the judgement came--first came the warning thru the MESSANGERS!

There are many reasons why I believe EGW to be inspired--but on this merit alone--she stands among the faithful messengers of God to bring again--the ppl back to the 'law' of Jehovah!!

If she were of the devil or of self--you can bet your britches that NO mention of holy living and obedience would have passed her lips!! Oh no--she would have preaching PROSPERITY--SLOPPY AGAPE or any other of the popular themes going on today that so many nominal SDA's seem to be so infatuated with.

I've been in chat rooms long enough to know that most of Christianity embrace emotionalism and feely good religion over righteous living and loving thy neigbor as thyself. You just mention obedience and they will take your head off!! They will label you a 'legalist' and a hater of the Cross if you think holy living is important.

Oh and by the way--these are ADVENTISTS that do this! You thought I was talking about "Mainstreamers" didn't you??? ROFL!!

Hang on to the foundations loved ones--this road promises to get a lot rockier as we near our journey. And the members of our own 'house' (church) will become our worst adversaries.

I'm reminded of two texts that will help us understand what is going on.....

Mr 6:4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.


Mt 10:36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.

(Keep in mind that Jesus used the word house to refer to the temple (church)!!

Take heart embattled ones--our fight is almost over and our Loving Lord is about to rescue us from this evil place of our wondering.

Strength and blessings--Honor

 

[Jon0388g]

Jon--you hit it just right. As I read the scriptures, the one thing that stands out in my mind of a true prophet is that they ALWAYS are pointing the people back to OBEDIENCE to God thru the commandments!

I wouldn't even say that. She pointed people to Christ primarily, but she stood as a rebuke to any wilful Law breaking, for the two are incompatible. The law only points to Christ anyway.

If she were of the devil or of self--you can bet your britches that NO mention of holy living and obedience would have passed her lips!! Oh no--she would have preaching PROSPERITY--SLOPPY AGAPE or any other of the popular themes going on today that so many nominal SDA's seem to be so infatuated with.

Hit the nail on the head.


Jon

 

[TrustAndObey]

Hi "Big Sis",

I agree with you to an extent. I've also posted on this issue a while back - but it looks like it will never end. The Adventist forum seems to have more non-Adventists (or, semi-Adventist, whatever that is).

I agree. They say they'd be happy if we quit talking about Ellen White, but it's my opinion that isn't true at all. Conflict fuels some people, and we're going to have to learn to recognize those people, and steer clear.

In regards to Ellen White, I am still not 100% sure. I've seen both sides of the argument, and there are both pros and cons. For example, there are troubling aspects within some of her writings, there is no getting around this fact. And, I personally feel uncomfortable when we have to show "contradictions" in the Bible in order to somehow justify Mrs White. Not only do I feel that is walking on dangerous ground, but I think this portrays the wrong picture to outsiders.

Jon, I'm not trying to justify Ellen White when I talk about contradictions in the bible. That's the truth. Scripture tells us to test the prophets, so it just makes sense to start with scripture itself, no?

I don't know enough about Ellen White to test her, but I do know this....there are some contradictions in scripture that don't seem to have an answer (at least for me). I know that God is not the author of confusion, so what may appear as contradictions to ME may not be contradictions at all. But if they are....what does that mean to the entire faith of Christianity?

Do we throw it all out or consider that the prophets were human beings that were not always inspired when they wrote.

It's an honest question.

If the tests being applied to Ellen White were applied to some of the prophets in scripture, I'm afraid they would fail without really DEEP study. Deep study is something that won't get afforded to Ellen White when someone is deliberately trying to find fault in her.

For the record, I believe every single word in scripture, but there are some things that I feel HUMAN beings wrote outside of their inspiration.

Those who are leaving/have left the church are so weary of calling her for what she is: either of God, or of the devil. She herself said there is no half-way mark in the matter, either she is sent of one, or the other: God and satan do not work in partnership. She had the guts to say it, but you rarely see someone who doubts her or discredits her work say she was a messenger of the devil.

And that's my whole point in a nutshell. There are some of us that think she was from God, and there are those that think she was from satan (even though they don't have the guts to say it)....so how can there ever really be peace in the main forum?

However, the more I read her for myself, and witness what is going on in the church and the state of it today, I get this niggling feeling that she really was inspired from God. Some of what she says is so true it sometimes sends shivers down my spine. She stood in rebuke to any hint of sin, whether small or great. She spoke of satan for what he is: the father of lies. And she also has lead thousands upon thousands to Christ.

I'll be the "devil's advocate" for a second and point out that visions of Mary (who we know were NOT Mary) have brought thousands of people to Christ too. False doctrine though....so did it really bring them to Him?

The argument you would hear back on this statement is that Ellen White pulls people into false doctrine, or at least partly false. I personally do not agree with that, but I'm just pointing out what response you'd get in the main forum.

So, it seems she will be a point of contention right up until the Second Advent, unfortunately. One thing I've noticed is that she is far more popular in our main forum than our Lord and Saviour. Every other thread is primarily about her.

And that drives me INSANE. I got on here one day and the first ten threads were about Ellen White. Frankly, it's sickening.

However, I do know why. She's being used as a stumblingblock and that's extremely OBVIOUS to me. People are attacking HER so others feel they have to defend her. It's a stumblingblock and it really is causing a lot of us to take our eyes off the big picture....CHRIST.

When someone ridicules her, report them. It's against the rules here on CF. It's really that simple. DO NOT get baited into all these debates when it does not edify anybody or anything.

To yours and Honour's point: can one be lead out of Adventism by the Spirit of God? In my opinion, we have to look at this issue in a different way. By walking away from Adventism, are they walking away from Christ?

For me, the huge red light is the Sabbath. I've let my feelings be known on this and I'll say it again. Whatever "spirit" leads one into breaking any of the laws of God, is not the Holy Spirit of God. And usually the most obvious stumbling point with formers is the seventh-day. First comes EGW, then comes the Sabbath. Why should we still keep the "old covenant"? Adventism must be wrong about that also. We cannot overcome sin, we are under the "new covenant" now, and similar nonsense.

Amen little brother. And hey, think about it. Why would we want to have a Lord when the other religions make it so appealing just to have a Savior? Why would we want to obey Him out of love, when so many other religions teach that disobeying Him IS love and we're "covered" no matter what?

I know I'm not the only Adventist that has been accused of trying to EARN my salvation. You can give verse after verse in scripture that says to obey Him out of love and respect....but.....

Seriously, I know why some people want out. They don't WANT rules. Life doesn't work that way unfortunately, and as I go to college with kids half my age, I'm seeing the result of not HAVING rules and of a generation that has no idea what consequences are. It's incredible, and very sad.

There was actually a special meeting called for all the instructors on HOW to deal with the generation coming into college. These are kids that will answer and try to have an entire conversation on their cell phones DURING class. I see very little respect and if an instructor reprimands a student (no lie...I've seen this twice with my own eyes) they'll say "I'm paying YOU to teach me, you work for ME!"

One thing EGW said about the Sabbath rings true in my ears at least. The Sabbath will be the dividing line between the loyal and the heathen in the last days. This statement is a thorn in many people's side, because it is a direct judgment on their actions. Wait and see, what is happening in the church now is surely signs of the times.

Amen again. Most of the people on this forum that leave say they will never denounce the Sabbath, but watch and see. They always do eventually.

 

[honorthesabbath]

Hi Doc, nice to see you again.

I'm guessing from some of your other posts that indeed you are a MD? if so-then you know what I am talking about as far as the health of our churches.

It has always amazed me that when Israel crossed over the Jordan, the bible tells us that NOT ONE was sick or feeble. Think about that!!! Some estimates put the population of that group at around 4 million!!

Now think about this... we cannot find today a little congregation of 100 people that at least half of them are not afflicted with at least one form of degenerative disease!! Our Adventist people should be the shinning example of God's health message just as Israel was that day they crossed over Jordan.

But instead we are plagued with cancer, arthritis, gout and heart, liver and kidney disfunction. How can we then present these bodies 'living sacrifices' unto God when they are reaking with disease? How can we be a light shinning in a dark place if we ignore this great light that we have been given?

Oh how I wish we could be the people that God had intended us to be!!! But as long as our brethren allow satan to cause foolish doctrinal divisions among us--then we are too preoccupied to do HIS will!!

Love and blessings, honor[BIBLE][/BIBLE]

 

[TrustAndObey]

I also want to add that I asked someone in the main forum if Traditional Adventists had somehow become "the enemy" and that person was honest and said "yes, some are."

THAT is what we're dealing with. Somehow we've been put up there with the beast power.

Think about that for a little while.

 

[erin74]

closed for staff review