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is this a contridiction?

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by Bleeding Memories, Jul 7, 2002.

  1. smaller

    smaller New Member

    25
    +0
    Who is manipulated by sin?

    ALL

    Is there ANY who have NO SIN?

    NO

    Is SIN OK or JUSTIFIED?

    NO

    Is SIN held to mankinds account?

    NO

    Does that mean it is OK to SIN if it is not accountable to mankind?

    NO

    Will SIN still occur with the believer?

    YES

    AS we can see this can be quite a struggle.

    "Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?"

    "So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."

    and

    God is Love. It is His Love that the entire universe is built upon, and that will sustain us FOREVER. His Love is the ONLY THING THAT MATTERS. It is IN HIM that ALL THINGS will be summed up, and the enemies of LOVE will be utterly destroyed.

    smaller
     
  2. Ozarkpreterist

    Ozarkpreterist New Member

    77
    +1
    Smaller,

    Sometimes taking scripture out of context is a harmless thing. However, there are times when taking a verse or two out of the context of the particular chapter or book can do harm to its meaning. Some passages must even be taken in the context of the whole Bible both old and new testaments to be understood. For others we must even consider the original audience to whom the passage was written.

    Taking passages out of context in Romans seven is a prime example of how doing so does harm to their meaning. If you read the whole chapter, you will see that its subject is the Law. The "wretched man" Paul speaks of is not the new creation believer. It is the man under the Law. Paul is saying that if we are under the Law, the best we can do is to desire to do righteousness, for we do not have the power to actually be righteous under the Law. That is why we need someone to save us. Our Savior is Christ.

    I am not arguing for sinless perfection. Yet, because we are no longer under the Law but instead we are under grace, the vast experience of our lives should be righteousness. This is why the New Testament does not call Christians sinners but saints. It is the truth that sets us free, and the truth is that we are free from sin, and in Christ we are enslaved to God.

    Ozark
     
  3. Darwin RULEZ

    Darwin RULEZ New Member

    51
    +0
    Scripture out of context is bad.................
     
  4. Bleeding Memories

    Bleeding Memories New Member

    5
    +0
    hmm... i wish that i understood all this better. ive read over the replies and i must say that for the most part they are just making my head spin. im a new believer, yes... but i do believe in God... however I, like every other living breathing Christian have made some mistakes.... and will probably continue... but because I may on occasion make an alternative decision does that mean that I will go to hell for it, even tho I believe on Jesus??....
     
  5. Ozarkpreterist

    Ozarkpreterist New Member

    77
    +1
    Bleeding Memories,

    Welcome to Christian Forums! That is the way things are around here. If you ask a question or make a statement, you will get a wide variety of responses from many different viewpoints. With a little patience the Lord will sort them out for you in time.

    As for your question about hell. There is no one here that can or should be your judge. None of us is without sin, so none of us is big enough for that job. However, I believe that when we stand before the Lord, He does not weigh our righteousness to see if it is enough. He looks for the righteousness of His Son. If you have received Christ, God has given you the gift of His own righteousness. This gift is the only thing that can enable us to stand in God's glory.

    A fellow that posts here from time to time likes to say that salvation is not a battle but a banquet. Let God show you that this is indeed true. When you invited Jesus into your heart, you got everything you need to be a Christian. Trust Him therefore to be everything you need.

    Jesus said that the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed. The mustard seed is the tiniest of seeds. Yet, it will grow into a tree that will dominate the garden. That is the way the kingdom is in our lives. When we begin walking with the Lord, our sins and hurts and weaknesses may seem so big that nothing could replace them. Yet, in time the kingdom of God will grow in our hearts. Paul said that the kingdom of God is righteousness, joy, and peace in the Holy Spirit. If we trust the Lord, these things will grow in our lives until they dominate all else.

    Ultimately, it is through faith in Christ that we overcome not through guilt or self-loathing or even the strength of our own piety.

     

    Ozark

     
     
  6. budoka

    budoka non-religious spirituality

    653
    +5
    In response to the original question: if you are asking 'Are there gay people who are happy being Christians?' the answer is yes. Their faith allows them to overcome meaningless biblical prohibitions (of which there are many, not just what gender you are allowed to fall in love with!); including Catholics, Protestants, even Mormons.
     
  7. leecappella

    leecappella <font size="3&quot ;>DO

    876
    +18
    Christian
    No, I do not believe it to be a contradiction. To those who view it as such, likely they see it as an oxymoron. I can only say what I heard somoene tell me, and it surely made me think: To be gay and christian is an oxymoron if one is a followere of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, your pastor, your preacher, etc. ( You get the idea). To be gay an christian is NOT an oxymoron if one is a follower of Jesus Christ. Think about that one. I mean, really contemplate it!

    In love,

    leecappella
     
  8. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    Who is manipulated by sin?

    ALL: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that HENCEFORTH we should not serve sin, for he that is dead is freed from sin

    Is there ANY who have NO SIN?

    NO He who says he has no sin, that same is a liar and the truth is not in him. BUT he who knows Him does not sin A little work is needed on the correct interpretation of "having no sin."


    Is SIN OK or JUSTIFIED?

    NO

    Is SIN held to mankinds account?

    NO There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit


    Does that mean it is OK to SIN if it is not accountable to mankind?

    NO What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? God Forbid! Know ye not that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants to him to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Hmmm.... sin shown to be opposite of obedience. How so very not surprising.


    Will SIN still occur with the believer?

    YES Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness ... For slaves you were of sin ... For sin shall not have dominion over you, for ye are not under the law, but under grace

    AS we can see this can be quite a struggle.

    "Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?"
    Thankfully, God, through Christ Jesus our Lord
    "So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."

    and

    God is Love. It is His Love that the entire universe is built upon, and that will sustain us FOREVER. His Love is the ONLY THING THAT MATTERS. It is IN HIM that ALL THINGS will be summed up, and the enemies of LOVE will be utterly destroyed.

    1/6 RNM
     
  9. Aaron11

    Aaron11 Well-Known Member

    +8
    If you truly love Christ, then you will give up your homosexual lifestyle, if you are predisposed to it or not.  You would do this because you know that homosexuality is an abomination to God.  Love for God would necessarily compel you to leave your life of sin for His way.

    Homosexuality entails a huge behavioral pattern. What other kind of behavioral patterns of this magnitude have been determined in our genetics? Violence? Drug abuse? Maybe certain people have more of an urge to act certain ways, but does that necessarily excuse them? A homosexual lifestyle is a choice as is a violent lifestyle. Should we excuse those who choose the lifestyle? If so, we should be consistent.

    What next? If homosexuality can be a predisposition, could beastiality be a predisposition? Or how about a child-molester? Could someone be predisposed to those behaviors also? Where does it end?
     
  10. watcher215

    watcher215 New Member

    30
    +1
    Christian
    Single
    This is my first time posting here. For what it's worth:

     

    I think it is wrong for a Christian to try to justify homosexual sex. It is a sin. Those who practice this sin should acknowledge it as such and not use euphemisms like 'alternative lifestyle' etc.

    I think the bottom line is that we MUST agree with God. This will be the first step towards freedom from whatever sin we find ourselves struggling with. If we persist in opposition to the truth of God's revelation (the law and the testimony) by saying, 'it is not a sin' we will surely be labeled as rebels and properly incur His wrath at the judgement.

    Let us humbly acknowledge and forsake our sins and then run to a God who has made a way for us to obtain mercy through Jesus Christ! :pray:
     
  11. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    According to Biblical record, such a choice demonstrates unbelief.
     
  12. Aradia

    Aradia Regular Member

    727
    +29
    Buddhist
    Single
    For anyone reading this thread and legitimately trying to formulate a conclusion for themselves, one must keep in mind that quoting bible verses from any language other than the original hebrew or greek is misleading. There are innumerable mistranslations that range anywhere from "not the best way to get the correct meaning across" to "outright lie". Anyone want to venture a guess as to why I bring this up? Yes, indeed, it's because the verses that people use to show homosexuality as a (sin, abomination, whatever) are quite often mistranslated in one way or another.

    Want an example? In Romans 1:26-27, which was quoted earlier on page 3 by Brian45, uses a phrase variously interpreted as "unnatural", "against nature", et cetera. Brian's translation used "against nature". The original greek is "para physin", which, though it can be translated as "unnatural", should more properly be translated as "unconventional", or "deviating from the norm". The same phrase is used in 1 Corinth 11:14 by Paul to describe long hair on men. It is also used, again by Paul, in Romans 11:24 to describe God's bringing together of the Jews and Gentiles. The phrase "para physin" has neither a positive nor negative denotation, and any such connotation given to the phrase was put their by the translator and/or the reader. There are, of course, many other such examples in both the OT and NT, but I won't give them all, as they are widely available.

    I can't, unfortunately, comment on the original question with a clear conscience because I'm not a christian. I can say, however, that I've know many christians who believe homosexuals cannot live a life of salvation, and I've known many christians who believe they can. My own opinions are, obviously, irrelevant in this discussion.
     
  13. Job_38

    Job_38 <font size="1"> In perfect orbit they have circled

    +1

    &nbsp;Can they? Absolutely, that is the great thing about God's grace: He will show mercy to whom He will show mercy. If they struggle with it, that is a problem but the true problem is when they do not repent of it, this shows that they may not be saved. Thats what its all about anyways: true repentance.

    &nbsp;

    &nbsp;

    &nbsp;
     
  14. Job_38

    Job_38 <font size="1"> In perfect orbit they have circled

    +1
    Let me ask this:

    Is it a contradiction for a Christian to lie? Or to cheat? Or perhaps curse God?

    We will fall into sin. The mark of a true salvation is repentance.
     
  15. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    Concentration on but one word in any given passage can cause extreme difficulties. For example, in Romans 1:26-27 the following is recorded dia touto paredwken autous o Qeos eis paqh atimias ai te gar qhleiai autwn methllaxan thn fusikhn crhsin eis thn para fusin omoiws te kai oi arseneV afenteV thn fusikhn crhsin thV qhleiaV exekauqhsan en tai opexei autwn eis allhlouV arseneV en arsesi thn aschmosunhn katergazomenoi

    While fusikoV in fact can be interpreted as "unconventional," the word most accurately denotes "instinctive." The "mistranslation" here does not alter the intent of the passage. Context refers to "forsaking the "conventional" practise" labelling that action as (sexual) lust, declaring it to be shameful.

    An alternative argument may be raised with regard to this particular passage as a condemnation of promiscuous homosexuality. The argument is, with relation to this specific passage, remotely tenable. With regard to other passages, one in particular making reference to senokoiteV which word translates directly as "homosexual," no such re-interpretation is viable.
     
  16. Aradia

    Aradia Regular Member

    727
    +29
    Buddhist
    Single
    Thunderchild:

    Yes, it can cause extreme difficulties. My intent was and is not to enter this debate, which I will not do, because, frankly, I just don't care to. =) Suffice it to say that I merely picked a random word to show that mistranslations exist and that people must be very careful when interpreting translated texts. Many a french movie have I seen where the subtitles translate spoken words (which I cannot use in this forum, if you get my drift ;) very inaccurately, and those individual words cause non-french speakers to interpret the dialogue differently. =)

    I'm outta here... time to get some much needed sleep. God bless!
     
  17. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    Indeed you are correct Aradia. There are a number of strange things which happen in Bible translations - even changing (as is done) the word "you" (plural) to "us" (a seemingly insignificant change) can radically alter the meaning and application of an entire passage.

    Speaking personally, welcome, you have made a valuable contribution here.
     
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