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Is there such a thing as a Christian homosexual?

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Shane Roach

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PastorFreud said:
Adulterers don't have a faction saying it's not a sin?? I beg to differ!! There is a large group of people who have divorced and remarried. According to Jesus, this is adultery. People just try to get around the clear teaching of scripture on this issue because they want to justify their sinful lifestyles. Jesus said if you divorce your wife you cause her to commit adultery. How much plainer does that need to be? We even ordain as ministers people who have divorced and remarried. We should urge people to stay OUT of the remarriage lifestyle. It leads to a lot of pain and hardship, especially when children are involved. Thank God for Dr. Laura on this one. She is clear about telling people who have had the misfortune of divorce to not marry and not date, at least not until the children are fully grown.
I think you may have caught me being sloppy with my language, but it doesn't change my overall point, which is that the assault is more from those teaching that homosexuality should be accepted than it is from the church against that acceptance. My mother has been married and divorced many times, and despite what you are saying about the evangelical church not standing up against this, she did indeed recieve a lot of counseling and fairly stern advice about continuing down that road when she became serious in her faith and began to attend churches with a more fundamentalist, if not evangelical per se, doctrine. It is precisely because of society's acceptance of the concept of no fault divorce that many churches mirrored that sentiment, but fundamentalists still consistently decry divorce and elicit from their members an acknowledgement that their divorces were sin on their part, and not just something they couldn't help.

Having said all that, there continue to be a lot of divorced people in fundamentalist churches. But that relates to what I have said even applies to homosexuals, which is that after the fact, if one repents, one can find healing and acceptance even after extended periods of apostacy.
 
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fragmentsofdreams

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Exodus 23:19, 34:26, and Deuteronomy 14:21 all forbid cooking goat kids in the milk of their mothers. There are three OT prohibitions of this act and no examples of this act being looked upon favorably in the Bible.

Does this mean that it is immoral to cook a goat kid in the milk of their mothers? Not necessarily. One needs to first determine what preciesely is being described here, why it was prohibited, and how what and why are relevant to the modern situation. One tradtion of interpretation says this was in response to a pagan fertility rite. If this is the case, it is okay to do this because there is no longer any fertility rite around for followers of God to distinguish themselves from. Another tradition of interpretation believes it stems from the belief that it is inhumane to cook an animal in the milk that recently nursed it. This would cause us to consider what is humane treatment of animals, and we could arrive to the conclusion that cooking a kid in goat's milk is immoral.

The point is that one cannot universally condemn homosexuality by just listing all of the times where same-sex sexual activity is shown in a negative like. One needs to look at exactly what practices are being described, why they are being dissaproved of, and how this affects Christians, especially Christians with same-sex attractions, living in the United States (or UK or Australia, etc.) in the 21st Century.
 
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Shane Roach

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fragmentsofdreams said:
Exodus 23:19, 34:26, and Deuteronomy 14:21 all forbid cooking goat kids in the milk of their mothers. There are three OT prohibitions of this act and no examples of this act being looked upon favorably in the Bible.

Does this mean that it is immoral to cook a goat kid in the milk of their mothers? Not necessarily. One needs to first determine what preciesely is being described here, why it was prohibited, and how what and why are relevant to the modern situation. One tradtion of interpretation says this was in response to a pagan fertility rite. If this is the case, it is okay to do this because there is no longer any fertility rite around for followers of God to distinguish themselves from. Another tradition of interpretation believes it stems from the belief that it is inhumane to cook an animal in the milk that recently nursed it. This would cause us to consider what is humane treatment of animals, and we could arrive to the conclusion that cooking a kid in goat's milk is immoral.

The point is that one cannot universally condemn homosexuality by just listing all of the times where same-sex sexual activity is shown in a negative like. One needs to look at exactly what practices are being described, why they are being dissaproved of, and how this affects Christians, especially Christians with same-sex attractions, living in the United States (or UK or Australia, etc.) in the 21st Century.
I know, I know. And again I sympathize. But like I said, there's a lot more to it than the dounoucements. There is the context of the several denouncements, the context of the one accepted definition of marriage, the context of the continuing teaching against all forms of fornication, and so forth.

Just as an aside, the example you give points out another point I have made before but which remains unanswered. If I were to take this issue seriously about the goat, I would have to say that really, it doesn't matter which of the two reasons for forbidding Jews to do it would have been. If it was because it was associated with idolatry, then it is wrong. If it is about a concept of cruelty that God is trying to get across, it is still wrong. The commandment itself, however, is not "do not boil a kid in its mothers milk in sacrifice to Baal," but simply, "do not boil a kid in its mother's milk."

All Christians have their crosses to bear. I am more than willing to try to help a brother or sister in Christ who struggles with this temptation, but I don't see it as helping to encourage them to just go with it. My experience, and even the experiences of other Christians I have known who have fallen into really bad habits during the Christian life, is that in the end God has His ways of teaching you the error of your ways, and I just wish someone had told me some of the things I'm trying to express now.

Romance is not "love" in the sense that we love one another as Christians. Romance is something that can grown between people, or be killed due to lack of concern. But romantic love is not guranteed to everyone, no matter their sexual orientations. It's sad, but it's true. Life is more than looking to experience that one all encompassing high. I think the wisest outlook I hear is when people point out that contentment isn't about getting what you want, it is about accepting what you have. The search for romantic love is as devestating to heterosexuals as it can be to someone who is searching for it so hard that they turn to homosexuality in their drive to have that experience.

I think you are inadvertantly leading people into a place that is only going to hurt them more. I am concerned with Christians and their walk, not society and how non-Christians get through their lives while rejecting Him, or Christians who decide to try to take a shortcut because they feel they know something secret that the rest of us aren't in on. I see all these various attempts to find something you find obscure and make a point about interpretaion are just another sign that there is no real argument to be had here on the basic facts of the debate. Perhaps most depressingly, I think that the idea that there is not anything uniquely bad about homosexuality is what gives people an innapropriate degree of sympathy for the people who they feel are trapped in a life where their experience of love is being denied. Being unable to find sexual attraction for the opposite sex isn't even really directly related to romance. The likelihood I take from the Bible is that the rate of failure of 'curing' homosexuality is that it is only ever practiced to begin with by people who are uniquely far from God already, and therefore will not benefit from any 'treatment' since deep inside they simply do not have the faith necessary to work through all the issues. For the handfull of Christians who fall into that lifestyle, they need the help of their brothers and sisters in unflinchingly calling it sin, while being willing to be close to them and not be cruel, and help them back to where they need to be.
 
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chalice_thunder

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Ruthiefan said:
Im an out and proud Lesbian christian :wave:

It is my belife that God knew i was going to be Gay before i was born,so it is no suprise to him that i am.

I have to side with Ruthie...I am an out and proud gay man. (proud not meaning arrogant - it means I am not ashamed to be the whole person God created me to be!) AND I am firmly Christian - have been my whole life. Since both Ruthie and I are living examples of this - I would say that the OP is answered: Is there such thing as a Christian homosexual? Yes.
 
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Shane Roach

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chalice_thunder said:
I have to side with Ruthie...I am an out and proud gay man. (proud not meaning arrogant - it means I am not ashamed to be the whole person God created me to be!) AND I am firmly Christian - have been my whole life. Since both Ruthie and I are living examples of this - I would say that the OP is answered: Is there such thing as a Christian homosexual? Yes.
This might be an opportunity for me to learn something as well. What exactly does it mean to you to be a Christian overall? What sorts of struggles do you deal with as you try to walk your walk with Christ?
 
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fejao

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chalice_thunder said:
I have to side with Ruthie...I am an out and proud gay man. (proud not meaning arrogant - it means I am not ashamed to be the whole person God created me to be!) AND I am firmly Christian - have been my whole life. Since both Ruthie and I are living examples of this - I would say that the OP is answered: Is there such thing as a Christian homosexual? Yes.
Well I personally would not say I am a proud gay person. I have since I was a child been told by the church that I am an abomination, pervert and possessed. Now that does'nt do much for your confidence, especially when you never made a choice to be who you are. However I know the meaning of perseverance, I have kept going to church and going after God even though I have sat through a few cell groups and services when my close friends have pulled down and said many bad things about homosexuals and basically there was so much that could have pushed me away from God. However I know God is real and he has done so many amazing things in my life and shown me his power and used me in amazing ways. So there is no way that I am going to abandon the lover of my soul and anyway he chose me, the homosexual Fejao. I am a Christian and I am going to be at the wedding feast despite what some say here !


Fejao x x
 
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fragmentsofdreams

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Shane Roach said:
I know, I know. And again I sympathize. But like I said, there's a lot more to it than the dounoucements. There is the context of the several denouncements, the context of the one accepted definition of marriage, the context of the continuing teaching against all forms of fornication, and so forth.

Just as an aside, the example you give points out another point I have made before but which remains unanswered. If I were to take this issue seriously about the goat, I would have to say that really, it doesn't matter which of the two reasons for forbidding Jews to do it would have been. If it was because it was associated with idolatry, then it is wrong. If it is about a concept of cruelty that God is trying to get across, it is still wrong. The commandment itself, however, is not "do not boil a kid in its mothers milk in sacrifice to Baal," but simply, "do not boil a kid in its mother's milk."

If it was prohibited because of association with idolatry, it would be permissible for Christians to do. If we are permitted to eat meat sacrificed to idols, why should we be forbidden to eat meat prepared in a manner that resembles a fertility rite that hasn't been practiced in millenia.

All Christians have their crosses to bear. I am more than willing to try to help a brother or sister in Christ who struggles with this temptation, but I don't see it as helping to encourage them to just go with it. My experience, and even the experiences of other Christians I have known who have fallen into really bad habits during the Christian life, is that in the end God has His ways of teaching you the error of your ways, and I just wish someone had told me some of the things I'm trying to express now.

I would never encourage someone to do something that I thought was wrong or that they thought was wrong. I'm not saying, "It's wrong, but it would be too hard," or "It's wrong but it's not that bad," or "It's wrong, but God will forgive you." I am saying, "I believe it is moral in same situations as heterosexual activity. Use marital morality as a guide."

Romance is not "love" in the sense that we love one another as Christians. Romance is something that can grown between people, or be killed due to lack of concern. But romantic love is not guranteed to everyone, no matter their sexual orientations. It's sad, but it's true. Life is more than looking to experience that one all encompassing high. I think the wisest outlook I hear is when people point out that contentment isn't about getting what you want, it is about accepting what you have. The search for romantic love is as devestating to heterosexuals as it can be to someone who is searching for it so hard that they turn to homosexuality in their drive to have that experience.

I don't see many heterosexuals turning to homosexuality, and if I met someone who did, I would advise them to not do it.

I think you are inadvertantly leading people into a place that is only going to hurt them more. I am concerned with Christians and their walk, not society and how non-Christians get through their lives while rejecting Him, or Christians who decide to try to take a shortcut because they feel they know something secret that the rest of us aren't in on. I see all these various attempts to find something you find obscure and make a point about interpretaion are just another sign that there is no real argument to be had here on the basic facts of the debate. Perhaps most depressingly, I think that the idea that there is not anything uniquely bad about homosexuality is what gives people an innapropriate degree of sympathy for the people who they feel are trapped in a life where their experience of love is being denied. Being unable to find sexual attraction for the opposite sex isn't even really directly related to romance. The likelihood I take from the Bible is that the rate of failure of 'curing' homosexuality is that it is only ever practiced to begin with by people who are uniquely far from God already, and therefore will not benefit from any 'treatment' since deep inside they simply do not have the faith necessary to work through all the issues. For the handfull of Christians who fall into that lifestyle, they need the help of their brothers and sisters in unflinchingly calling it sin, while being willing to be close to them and not be cruel, and help them back to where they need to be.

I brought this up in response to your arguement that there were no clear examples in the Bible of approved homosexual activity. My point was that there was an action prohibited more times in the OT than homosexuality (3 vs. the 2 Lev) that has no clear counterpassages that would seem to approve of it that was still possibly moral for modern Christians.

I think that the high failure rates of conversion or reparative therapies is the fact that same-sex attraction in and of itself is not sinful. Just as celibate heterosexual people do not have their sexual attractions removed from them, homosexuals who discern that they are to remain celibate do not have their sexual attractions removed. God does sometimes intervene to remove a nonsinful hardship from us, but often he does not. Blaming the continued same-sex attractions of homosexual Christians on a lack of faith is like blaming the poor health of a person with cancer on a lack of faith. Just as God doesn't always miraculously heal cancer patients, he doesn't always change homosexuals into heterosexuals even if they have no fault of their own. This is why I find your blanket accusation all homosexual Christians of lack of faith highly offensive. They don't need your judgement. They already have enough to deal with.
 
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Shane Roach

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fragmentsofdreams said:
...


I brought this up in response to your arguement that there were no clear examples in the Bible of approved homosexual activity. My point was that there was an action prohibited more times in the OT than homosexuality (3 vs. the 2 Lev) that has no clear counterpassages that would seem to approve of it that was still possibly moral for modern Christians.

...

I think that the high failure rates of conversion or reparative therapies is the fact that same-sex attraction in and of itself is not sinful.
The counterpassage for food is in the NT. There is no counterpassage for any sort of fornication of whatever orientation.

As far as I know, same sex attraction is not in and of itself sinfull. I believe I have said that more than once. You really butchered my last post, ignoring huge portions and all sorts of important concerns just to set me up for another accusation of being judgemental. I'm dissapointed, but I guess not entirely surprised.
 
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Shane Roach

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I think the thing you're missing here is that just about everything in the whole OT is forgone and replaced with obeying the lcivil laws and abstaining from sexual immorality in the NT, meaning that you have picked out of the entire slew of things in the OT one of a tiny handfull of things that really is still forbiden. It seems a strange cooincidence that it is also something that has become a popular political point for people who actively dislike Christians in general and suddenly there is also a movement afoot to say that it is also wrong for Christians to think of it as a sin, despite having no workable explanation as to why.

Come to think of it, I don't think you're 'missing' it at all. I think you enjoy the idea of thinking of yourself as just being cleverer than the backwards thinking rubes like myself. I think that's why it comes so easily over and over from all of you to accuse people who don't agree with you of being judgemental despite repeated explanations of exactly why we think it is important.
 
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mpshiel

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Shane, honestly, I just don't get it. Why do you care so much? I know you have mentioned that you don't want new teaching brought in without examination. But from your replies it seems evident that you have examined, and examined and examined it and come to a firm conclusion. So be it. Why do you then continue to hammer away at it? Do you really think that those who feel that they can be a homosexual and a Christian are going to change? Do you even want them to change? What is it that you want?

The short arguement is this: If the Spirit of God is with a person, then God is there. As Peter was told regarding laws he KNEW where right in Act 10:14-15 - "What God has cleaned call not common (or unclean)."

I would also ask you, if there is no sin in being gay, or thinking gay then where exactly is the sin? I am married. Now you may not accept that, yet for decades American Christian slaves "married" by jumping the broom - were they living in sin? But my question is, when and where is the sin? Is it that I live in the same house with someone I love? Or is it in a kiss? Or a pat as I go by? Or a hug? A cuddle? A glance? The nature of sin is that it is not abstract but can be defined. You have spoken about those who unrepentantly live a homosexual lifestyle - please be blunt - what is the sin in a homosexual lifestyle?

And just out of curiousity - do you think masturbation is a sin?
 
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fejao

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Hi,
Mpshiel I just want to be a bit blunt about your post, it raises a lot of great questions, however the last part show's maybe a bit of misunderstanding I think. You refer to the "homosexual lifestyle", in my oppinion this does not exist, nor does the hetrosexual lifestyle. We all live different lifestyles and the idea that homosexuals life a particular lifestyle is silly because of their sexual makeup. I dont think you meant to say this and probally was just a bit of an oversight, but I thought it was important to bring it up, God Bless.

Fejao x
 
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mpshiel

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Thank you fejao, I was referring to when Shane and other talk about the unrepentant "homosexual lifestyle" - perhaps the question I should ask is..."What is a homosexual lifestyle, and what sin is there in it?"

I still think it is important to get people to define thier terms, even if I don't agree with them. Like "Gay agenda" - You know there is no gay agenda, I know there is no gay agenda, but instead of trying to tell people who claim there is that there isn't - I think it is better to get them to specifically define exactly what the "gay agenda" is. One it is specific and defined, then it can be shown as a fallacy. I think the same occurs with "homosexual lifestyle" - I don't know what it is exactly, but I assume those who use the term do.
 
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fejao

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mpshiel said:
Thank you fejao, I was referring to when Shane and other talk about the unrepentant "homosexual lifestyle" - perhaps the question I should ask is..."What is a homosexual lifestyle, and what sin is there in it?"

I still think it is important to get people to define thier terms, even if I don't agree with them. Like "Gay agenda" - You know there is no gay agenda, I know there is no gay agenda, but instead of trying to tell people who claim there is that there isn't - I think it is better to get them to specifically define exactly what the "gay agenda" is. One it is specific and defined, then it can be shown as a fallacy. I think the same occurs with "homosexual lifestyle" - I don't know what it is exactly, but I assume those who use the term do.
Thanks Mpshiel, for clarifying exactly what you mean in your previous post. There is so much jargon flying about here sometimes, that we pick it up and using it without fully realising what the implication and meaning of these words are, me included. God Bless.

Fejao x x
 
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cabrown said:
For the first time in my life, I am personally aquainted with a number of openly gay and lesbian individuals, many of which are religious. :clap: I find almost all of them as sincere and heartfelt in their spiritual zeal as any other Christian, but it seems to me the Bible is explicity clear that homosexuality in any form is a sin. :scratch: Can christianity embrace and accept gays and lesbians? I am not sure what my opinion is myself? :wave:
My opinion is that gays and lesbians are people. They are born the way they are born. God created them. I know many, many homosexual Christians but why do we have to label them as "gay" - like, why do I have to be labeled as "white"? I'm a human being - plain and simple. However, you're talking to a woman who also doesn't take the bible literally. I have the Holy Spirit interpret the bible for me and I have to say that Jesus IMO was about love. I don't know why other's feel it necessary to point out other's sins. I don't - I have enough of my own that I have to take up with God. And as a mere mortal - who am I to determine what is sin and what is not? God is the judge - not me or anyone else for that matter. I find it laughable that being gay is a sin but then again, I've been called a non-christian b/c I believe that way but anyway that's just my opinion.
 
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razzelflabben

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Shane Roach said:
Insasmuch as you brought it up in relation to this thread, it applies. Homosexuality is actually referred to as among the worst sins. Unrepentant practice of it coupled with expressions of the belief that it is not sin therefore falls directly under the heading of verses that exhort us all to seperate ourselves from those who practice such things, whereas I am not exhorted for example to seperate myself from someone who teaches that the death penalty is immoral despite what I see as equally clear Biblical teaching that it is moral.
I dare say that if the scripture was that clear on the issue, then there would be not controvesy as to God's view on the issue, (mans view maybe, but not God's). So if this is what the bible says, then show us the verses please. By the way, the scripture must also tell us that homosexuality is the sin not the act of homosexuality or we are right back to square one. If you can show us clearly in scirpture where homosexuality is one of the worst sins, then we are on our way to understanding this issue, and can put the whole thing to rest.
 
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razzelflabben

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Shane Roach said:
Regarding verses I have posted about church discipline, false teachers are also characterized by their behavior, not just their teaching, and it is through observing this behavior that we get another clue as to whose company we are to avoid. This, as I mentioned already, is discernment, not judgement, and we are instructed to use this discernment.

My very first example text in 1 Cor in fact does not follow your assertion that it is only regarding what is taught.
Never said it was based only on what was taught, just said that they are all related to false teachers. Have a good story for this but still think this discussion is best left for another thread.
 
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razzelflabben

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fejao said:
Well I personally would not say I am a proud gay person. I have since I was a child been told by the church that I am an abomination, pervert and possessed. Now that does'nt do much for your confidence, especially when you never made a choice to be who you are. However I know the meaning of perseverance, I have kept going to church and going after God even though I have sat through a few cell groups and services when my close friends have pulled down and said many bad things about homosexuals and basically there was so much that could have pushed me away from God. However I know God is real and he has done so many amazing things in my life and shown me his power and used me in amazing ways. So there is no way that I am going to abandon the lover of my soul and anyway he chose me, the homosexual Fejao. I am a Christian and I am going to be at the wedding feast despite what some say here !


Fejao x x
I look forward to chatting with you at that feast.
 
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razzelflabben

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fragmentsofdreams said:
I think that the high failure rates of conversion or reparative therapies is the fact that same-sex attraction in and of itself is not sinful. Just as celibate heterosexual people do not have their sexual attractions removed from them, homosexuals who discern that they are to remain celibate do not have their sexual attractions removed. God does sometimes intervene to remove a nonsinful hardship from us, but often he does not. Blaming the continued same-sex attractions of homosexual Christians on a lack of faith is like blaming the poor health of a person with cancer on a lack of faith. Just as God doesn't always miraculously heal cancer patients, he doesn't always change homosexuals into heterosexuals even if they have no fault of their own. This is why I find your blanket accusation all homosexual Christians of lack of faith highly offensive. They don't need your judgement. They already have enough to deal with.
Same thing I have been saying but you put it much more eloquently
 
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Shane Roach

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razzelflabben said:
I dare say that if the scripture was that clear on the issue, then there would be not controvesy as to God's view on the issue, (mans view maybe, but not God's). So if this is what the bible says, then show us the verses please. By the way, the scripture must also tell us that homosexuality is the sin not the act of homosexuality or we are right back to square one. If you can show us clearly in scirpture where homosexuality is one of the worst sins, then we are on our way to understanding this issue, and can put the whole thing to rest.
I have never said the temptation to homosexual sin was sin itself. No temptation is sin, else Christ being tempted would be sin. As for the idea that there would be no contraversy if it were clear, that is not true. The Bible says there will absolutely be controversy's invented and false teachings invading the church.

It makes no sense to imply that just because you or some other group of people refuse to accept something that is stated clearly that there is therefore doubt, and therefore since ther is doubt you are right.
 
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