Is there such a thing as a Christian homosexual?

[Shane Roach]

This is ultimately an argument from silence: because the Bible never explicitly describes homosexual marriages it implicitly excludes them as a moral option. This is just as fallacious as when people justify homosexuality by pointing to Jesus' silence on the issue.

This single quote you took is an argument from silence, but coupled with the other things I have posted on this matter it is not, and there is a rule against taking peoples posts out of context, though I notice it is not enforced much.

 

[Shane Roach]

hmmmmm?



Strange, I don't see anything about premartial sex being called a sickening crime? Oh, sin is it? Sorry. Just to let you know, when people in the Western world say, "It was just a sickening crime." Other people in English speaking counties assume you are talking about: rape, torturing animals, cruelty to the elderly or children or of acts of extreme brutality - like smashing someones face with a bat. So when you say many find homosexuality a "sickening crime" then people would mentally compare it with things like torturing animals or children. But if you were talking about sin, like for intance, envy. Not a lot of people would say, "Bob saw his neighbors car today and really wanted one like it, it was a sickening crime." - But as no harm was meant, just thought I would let you know.

And in response to Shane, yes: one can love without penatrative sex. One can kiss, cuddle, hold hands, sit in each others lap, massage each other with vanilla scented oil, wrap your bodies together, caress using only the fingertips, give little nibbles and also stroke finger through each other's hair. I assume that these are all fine between two people of the same sex in love as long as no SEX is involved? If not, can you please isolate which behaviors require repentance and which don't - including winks, sultry glances, whispers, brushing against each other and devious smiles.

Other sickening crimes include genital fondling of children, sexual congress with animals, sexual acts in public.. Sickening acts of a sexual nature that may not be criminal include bodily excrement play. If you have a difficult time with where the line is, the Bible's teaching is to try to avoid even the appearance of sin. The bottom line is that there is a clear distinction drawn in the Bible between typical sin and certain unrepentant sins which it is taught should be excluded from the church. No one is arguing that homosexuality is unforgiveable, but it is substantially different from say, being ungratefull for your job to the extent that you have unrighteous anger towards your boss, or some such.

Personally, I find the tone of your post here snide and insulting, and perhaps I should not have replied as frankly as I have, but this is the simple truth about how a lot of people feel about homosexuality, despite its supposed acceptance. The church turning its back on clear morality, and even common decency, is not a good thing. Inventing confusions like trying to blur the line between sexual and non sexual conduct does not make for a very convincing debate. Rather, once again, you appear to be indulging in a little rhetorical brinksmanship, trying to get a rise out of someone and get them to say something you can make even more rhetorical ground with. You still have absolutely no grounds for the statement that homosexuality is acceptable under any circumstances, so you shift gears to provocative language and insinuation.

 

[Shane Roach]

To take things back to the op Is there such a thing as a Christian homosexual? Those who have read my posts will note that I likened homosexuality to any sin that man can commit, including but not limited to everyone who calles themselves christian. The the act of homosexuality was later discussed specifically with which I responded that it is necessary for the christian to exercise self control over the old man, thus living a victorious life in Christ. I had no idea that this line of biblical teaching was so far removed from the christian line of thinking. I cannot appologize for saying it because it is scriptural but I do appologize for being so far removed from what people are thinking and being taught, as to stir things up so.

What really burdens me on this issue is the fierce attacks at such statements. We have a dear friend who is from Nigeria, (the MK home of my husband) we talked to him once about polygamous converts in Nigeria. What he said was very interesting. He said that when a man comes to Christ, and has many wives, the church basically waits for the Holy Spirit to convict the man. Inevitably the wives will see a change in the man and some will (at great sacrifice to themselves) offer to leave so that the man is free to exercise that self control over the desires of the flesh.

This brings two questions to my mind. One, why is the church so adament about the sin of homosexuality (a similar biblical arguement to monogamy) Why not allow the Holy Spirit to convict when the time is right for the individual to deal with the issue in his or her own life? Secondly, why are so many people acting as though they are convicted on the issue but instead of answering the call to the life God has called them to they argue and fight?

To me the more telling question is, why are there recently so many Christians attacking the clear teaching of the Bible? We are NOT called to ignore sin, we are taught to strive to exclude it from our lives and not to allow it to be taught in the church. Period. THAT is the question.

As for multiple wives, to the best of my ability to discern, it is not taught that a man should leave his wives in economic destitution and dump them. The teaching regarding multiple wives seems to stop at simply not allowing men with multiple wives to become leaders in the church, but they and their families are allowerd to continue in the congregation. Interstingly enough, supporters of the outright forbidden practice of homosexual marriage often look down their nose at the less severe problem of polygamy simply because in modern times it makes for a good political distinction, along with continually harping on how sad it is that people who have actually not yet been proven to have no choice in the matter are cast as suffering because of love.

No one ever said you weren't supposed to be able to love, and love deeply, someone of the same gender.

 

[Shane Roach]

What statistics would these be then? Refs. please.

It is common knowledge, to the point where supporters of homosexual marriage often argue that allowing gays to marry will mollify the situation somewhat. I am not going to do this research for you, and if that leaves you unconvinced then so be it. It would seem the very nature of gay bars and bath houses would be enough on its face for you to understand. Perhaps you've never been to a gay bar, I don't know. I cursory glance at the studies though should be more than enough for you if you're really interested. Just poke around Yahoo for a few minutes.

 

[PastorFreud]

I likened homosexuality to a sickening crime in the same way I did, heterosexual pre marital sex, etc. This is a discussion about christianity and homosexuality. To God, there is no hierachy of sin. Sin is sin. A rapists sin according to God is grounds for death, so is adultry, lust, premarital sex, etc. Don't read into posts what is not there.

What are your grounds for claiming all sin is the same in God's eyes?

 

[Shane Roach]

I'm just wondering how many of you are gay.... and if you're not, why are you so worried or concerned with what goes on in your neighbors bedroom? I find it really funny that so many heterosexual Christians are sitting around wringing their hands and debating and making judgements about who someone else loves.

Again, because the Bible teaches that those who unrepentantly continue on in sexual sin are to be excluded from the Church. Not everything written in the Bible, nor indeed every word from Christ, is in perfect tune with modern ideas about what a church ought to be like, and the result has been many Christians being isolated while many non-Christians find homes in the church where they commence to belittle and undermine the communion of Christians with one another.

The Bible doesn't say, "They will know we are Christians by our love," as the popular church-camp hymn goes. It says, "They will know we are Christians by the love we bear one another." As for those who sin, the expession is, "What communion has light with darkness?"

 

[Shane Roach]

In short, whether "homosexuality is a sin" is a problem that needs to be dealt with only by those tempted to it, and those whom they turn to for counsel as they attempt to live out lives transformed by Christ. And any such counsel needs to be done with compassion and brotherly love in the high seat, and with any tendencies to judge one's fellow man firmly quashed within oneself.

Absolutely false. Whether or not it is a sin has been clearly taught in the scripture. HOW someone deals with the temptation is between them and those who they call on for help, but the question of whether it is sin has been answered clearly, and that is the point. There is a limit to just who can be allowed as a member in good standing of a church, or else it is nothing but a social club. The church is the Body of Christ. Christ has left us as Christians in charge of caring for that insitution with specific intructions, and it is our duty to follow those instructions, not collapse in the face of false teachings.

The New Testament warns -repeatedly- to guard against false teachings. How do you then put the lie to the scripture by insisting we have not even so much as the right to discern sin from righteousness?

 

[Shane Roach]

I would disagree with you. Homosexuality is sin, but according to scripture, the only sin we are not covered for is grieving the Holy Spirit. Homosexuality is sin, but it is covered by the grace of God and the sacrifice of The Christ. As for the gentics of it, i don't think people are born gay. I think it is a choice someone makes.

I am not talking about salvation; I am talking about being in the church. In regards to salvation you are correct, but there are certain minimum standards for a person to be a member of the church, and this too is not a matter of interpretation. It is clearly taught throughout the NT writings.

 

[razzelflabben]

To me the more telling question is, why are there recently so many Christians attacking the clear teaching of the Bible? We are NOT called to ignore sin, we are taught to strive to exclude it from our lives and not to allow it to be taught in the church. Period. THAT is the question.

As for multiple wives, to the best of my ability to discern, it is not taught that a man should leave his wives in economic destitution and dump them. The teaching regarding multiple wives seems to stop at simply not allowing men with multiple wives to become leaders in the church, but they and their families are allowerd to continue in the congregation. Interstingly enough, supporters of the outright forbidden practice of homosexual marriage often look down their nose at the less severe problem of polygamy simply because in modern times it makes for a good political distinction, along with continually harping on how sad it is that people who have actually not yet been proven to have no choice in the matter are cast as suffering because of love.

No one ever said you weren't supposed to be able to love, and love deeply, someone of the same gender.

Ignoring sin and allowing the holy spirit to convict are two completely different things. The church (body of believers)should never back away from the scriptural truths, no matter the consequences but I find it odd that so many churches who once neglected teachings on homosexuality suddenly find it necessary to preach on it every service. We are called to make disciples, this involves a long process of teaching and learning the ways of God. We grow in Christ, this growth takes time, for all of us, not just those who are good at hiding their sin. To take someone and beat them over the head with scripture is neither love nor biblical in nature. To study the word together, during the process of growing in the Lord on the other hand is very Loving and Biblical in nature.

As to the issue of polygamy, the biblical study is somewhat though not totally unclear as is the issue of women keeping silent in church, as is homosexuality. This is why I asked at the very beginning of this thread for the study be shared with the thread so that we could study the scriptures together, disciple one another. It is also why I said that we must look into the study trying to see God's view rather than mans, allowing for justification of what one thinks and feels. Apparently both fell on deaf ears in that justifying scriptures and arguements were presented by no biblical study offered. We dare not study the word of God for the purpose of justifying our own ideas for when we do, we miss God. Do I beleive homosexuality is a sin. Yes, am I willing to listen and consider scriptures presented to the contrary, yep. It is how we learn and care, love and discover the truth the living God has for us.

XXNo one ever said you weren't supposed to be able to love, and love deeply, someone of the same genderXX

Simply saying, I can know what it is like and do know.

 

[razzelflabben]

What are your grounds for claiming all sin is the same in God's eyes?

Start with all have sinned and come short of the glory of God and move right into For the wages of sin is death. Where is the heiarchy here? Biblical study 101

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

hmmmmm?



Strange, I don't see anything about premartial sex being called a sickening crime? Oh, sin is it? Sorry. Just to let you know, when people in the Western world say, "It was just a sickening crime." Other people in English speaking counties assume you are talking about: rape, torturing animals, cruelty to the elderly or children or of acts of extreme brutality - like smashing someones face with a bat. So when you say many find homosexuality a "sickening crime" then people would mentally compare it with things like torturing animals or children. But if you were talking about sin, like for intance, envy. Not a lot of people would say, "Bob saw his neighbors car today and really wanted one like it, it was a sickening crime." - But as no harm was meant, just thought I would let you know.

And in response to Shane, yes: one can love without penatrative sex. One can kiss, cuddle, hold hands, sit in each others lap, massage each other with vanilla scented oil, wrap your bodies together, caress using only the fingertips, give little nibbles and also stroke finger through each other's hair. I assume that these are all fine between two people of the same sex in love as long as no SEX is involved? If not, can you please isolate which behaviors require repentance and which don't - including winks, sultry glances, whispers, brushing against each other and devious smiles.

To be fair, discussions about premarital heterosexual intimacy are equally ambiguous about what is too far if they don't fall into the err of legalism. Ultimately, it is up to the couple to prudently determine what actions come from impure intentions or could lead to sexual immorality.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

So first you invent a new interpretation as sexual, then you pretend that it is 'oblique'. No, Ruth didn't lay down on Boaz's naked genitals in public. Sorry. But no. I am astonished.... That's a new one on me and I thought I had heard it all.

From the footnotes of my Bible:

There is a slight overtone of sexual intimacy in the passage, since feet (vv. 4, 8) in Hebrew can be a euphemism for "genitals" (OT 335, emphasis in original)

 

[BobKat]

Back from work...Of course, Homosexuals can be christians. As for those of you who adhere to every word of the bible, how do you feel about this?
I'm assuming that you devout christians do not believe in marriage between people of different races-Numbers 25:6-8; Deuteronomy 7:3; 1 Kings 11:2; Ezra 9:2; Nehemiah 13:25-27.

Or, the marriage of a divorced woman- Matthew 5:32. Oh, and you widows cannot remarry any one but your brother-in-law, Deuteronomy 25:10. You ministers may only marry a virgin-Leviticus 21:13-14. You straight men? You cannot have had any sexual thoughts for any woman other than the one you intend to marry-Matthew 5:28.

I am certain that plenty of you will be posting in seconds to refute me. To those of you I will ask, how can you pick and choose? How is it o.k. for you to be "christian" and marry one of another race, or one who has been divorced, or one who is widowed? How can you marry if you have had lustful thoughts for another other than your intended? I mean, the bible says it's wrong, right? You will say that you are truly penitent, or the bible didn't really mean that YOU couldn't marry someone from a different race, or who was divorced. I am certain that you all have your hormones so in check, you've never lusted after any one you did not intend to marry, right? Plus, we all know it's o.k. to commit incest with your Father if there are no suitable men around. I hope you are all keeping kosher...thou shalt not seethe a calf in it's mother's milk, so no cheeseburgers or pepperoni pizzas for you! No work on saturdays, either. Then, there are those pesky laws about fiber mixing...No cotton-poly blends for this lot.
Yes there are gay christians, whether or not you approve.

realistically,
BobKat

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Start with all have sinned and come short of the glory of God and move right into For the wages of sin is death. Where is the heiarchy here? Biblical study 101

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God - this does not imply that the sins of everyone are the same or equal.

for the wages of sin is death - sin deadens the body and the spirit, but each sin does not do this equally.

 

[BobKat]

Oh and please,
no "emotional" responses, just logical ones.
gratefully, BobKat

 

[PastorFreud]

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God - this does not imply that the sins of everyone are the same or equal.

for the wages of sin is death - sin deadens the body and the spirit, but each sin does not do this equally.

We have to admit that the effects of stealing a penny from the cash register and murdering 12 people while robbing the bank are different. All of us may have sinned and all sin may lead to death, but to lump everything sends a message that is actually defeating. Take unmarried young people who are taught that thinking about sex is the same as having sex. There comes a point where the young people say, "We are already guilty, we might as well have the sex." The sin of lust and the sin of adultery definitely have a different effect on society.

With this is mind, who does the sin of homosexual love and sex in the context of committed relationships really hurt?

Razelflabben, I will find the link for you. The Bible study on all these passages has been done a number of times. Unfortunately, unless the reader is consistent in interpreting and understanding the text, it won't make much of a difference to do the study again.

 

[artybloke]

It is common knowledge, to the point where supporters of homosexual marriage often argue that allowing gays to marry will mollify the situation somewhat. I am not going to do this research for you, and if that leaves you unconvinced then so be it. It would seem the very nature of gay bars and bath houses would be enough on its face for you to understand. Perhaps you've never been to a gay bar, I don't know. I cursory glance at the studies though should be more than enough for you if you're really interested. Just poke around Yahoo for a few minutes.

Aaah, common knowledge! No doubt it's the same kind of common knowledge that used to say that all black people wanted to rape white women. I've been to gay bars once or twice, and yes they're pretty much a cattle market. But then I've been to straight clubs that are pretty much the same; and we don't go around saying that all straight people are very promiscuous.

Gay bars tend to be full of young men. Older men don't get much of a look in. Ditto with straight bars, I guess.

I know quite a lot of gay and lesbian people, many but not all in relationships. I don't see any evidence that gay people are any more or less promiscuous than straight people. People who are very promiscuous tend to be also pretty screwed up; not because of the the promiscuity but because of problems caused during childhood or adolescence (being called a "disgusting sinner" or a "pervert" doesn't do a great deal for your self-esteem when you're 12-15!)

I think you might find some of your statistics rather out-of-date, even if they aren't already biased. These days, even gay men are settling for domestic bliss rather than "experimental" relationships and promiscuity.

 

[Fideist]

I am not talking about salvation; I am talking about being in the church. In regards to salvation you are correct, but there are certain minimum standards for a person to be a member of the church, and this too is not a matter of interpretation. It is clearly taught throughout the NT writings.

If I were gay, I wouldn’t want to be in your cruel, finger pointing little church.

 

[watcher16]

That was a great response, and in almost every regard I agree with you. I am not asking if we should go out and attack gay rights. I am wondering for my personal belief system whether I can accept homosexuality as on par with God's gospel. I am in no way advocating hate or intolerance.

One other thing though. I work right now as a research scientist, and it has amazed me how quickly the biological theory of sexuality has pervaded society, based almost completely on propoganda and not on scientific discovery. Whatever someone tries to tell you, there is no proof in either direction that homosexuality is an inborn trait. There is not even very convincing evidence to make that assumption. This is a hobby horse of mine, and I have searched the literature. I am not saying it is or isn't, but it's strange to me the so many people accept that as fact without any scientific basis. In my opinion, sexual orientation is based on experiential conditioning entirely. Oddly enough, the research hasn't really focused there. And really, this is the key issue. If this IS an inborn quality, I could never under good conscious call a homosexual a sinner, anymore than I could call a black man or a blind man a sinner. But this is a behavior, not a quality, and we choose our behaviors.

Hello there, how do you mean no convincing evidence?

Most gay people can be distinguished from a mile away.

Never seen a gay parade? These days they don´t hide anymore, so what are you talking about?

I never heard anyone say it was not an inborn trait, so I have no 'evidence' available right now.

Seems to me I entered the right forum here

 

[watcher16]

Back from work...Of course, Homosexuals can be christians. As for those of you who adhere to every word of the bible, how do you feel about this?
I'm assuming that you devout christians do not believe in marriage between people of different races-Numbers 25:6-8; Deuteronomy 7:3; 1 Kings 11:2; Ezra 9:2; Nehemiah 13:25-27.

Or, the marriage of a divorced woman- Matthew 5:32. Oh, and you widows cannot remarry any one but your brother-in-law, Deuteronomy 25:10. You ministers may only marry a virgin-Leviticus 21:13-14. You straight men? You cannot have had any sexual thoughts for any woman other than the one you intend to marry-Matthew 5:28.

I am certain that plenty of you will be posting in seconds to refute me. To those of you I will ask, how can you pick and choose? How is it o.k. for you to be "christian" and marry one of another race, or one who has been divorced, or one who is widowed? How can you marry if you have had lustful thoughts for another other than your intended? I mean, the bible says it's wrong, right? You will say that you are truly penitent, or the bible didn't really mean that YOU couldn't marry someone from a different race, or who was divorced. I am certain that you all have your hormones so in check, you've never lusted after any one you did not intend to marry, right? Plus, we all know it's o.k. to commit incest with your Father if there are no suitable men around. I hope you are all keeping kosher...thou shalt not seethe a calf in it's mother's milk, so no cheeseburgers or pepperoni pizzas for you! No work on saturdays, either. Then, there are those pesky laws about fiber mixing...No cotton-poly blends for this lot.
Yes there are gay christians, whether or not you approve.

realistically,
BobKat

You take the words right out of my keyboard!