Is there such a thing as a Christian homosexual?

[PastorFreud]

I have an issue with this because people would generally see this as -- and I would agree -- an immoral act. Alotta people, however, give sketchy reasoning for this. If you think about it, when you go to a kennel and adopt an animal, you are doing so without the animal's consent.

But adopting an animal doesn't mean you are violating its orifices. I don't think that the animal could give consent, ever, therefore it would be wrong to force yourself on it.

The same issue would come up with a mentally retarded adult. Old enough to give consent, but lacking the mental capacity to do so. Is this covered under Moses? Also, young Hebrew girls could be married off quite young, and might be sexual at 14. We would consider this immoral today. And if your brother died without providing an heir, you would be obligated to take his wife and give her offspring. We would consider this unnecessary today, but it is law of Moses. It gets very tricky to apply these standards, but I believe that Moses law is even trickier than Jesus'.

 

[EltronRangamma]

But adopting an animal doesn't mean you are violating its orifices.

I don't think that the animal could give consent, ever, therefore it would be wrong to force yourself on it.

I beg to differ. The animal can be trained to engage in these deplorable acts. And, whose to say its the animal's orifices the bestialite is violating? Yes, lurid, but I have to make this point to see how you can reason this as immorality.

The same issue would come up with a mentally retarded adult. Old enough to give consent, but lacking the mental capacity to do so. Is this covered under Moses? Also, young Hebrew girls could be married off quite young, and might be sexual at 14. We would consider this immoral today. And if your brother died without providing an heir, you would be obligated to take his wife and give her offspring. We would consider this unnecessary today, but it is law of Moses. It gets very tricky to apply these standards, but I believe that Moses law is even trickier than Jesus'.

I wasn't really discussing Mosaic law but I agree with you, a lot of the Mosaic law is not for us, seeing that ancient Judaism was culture-specific.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Man, this conversation has been entirely too civil.

Bravo.

<3,

Philalalalalalalalala

Give it time

 

[EltronRangamma]

Give it time

Hahaha

 

[transientlife]

Just because an animal could be trained to do the deplorable, doesn't mean that it is giving consent. It is a defenseless animal, merely reacting to positive/negative reinforcement of the desired behavior the "trainer" wants.

 

[PiNKFaITH]

Wow theres alot of peoples input on this subject

 

[EltronRangamma]

Just because an animal could be trained to do the deplorable, doesn't mean that it is giving consent. It is a defenseless animal, merely reacting to positive/negative reinforcement of the desired behavior the "trainer" wants.

Right, so why do we give people the right to adopt then? Aren't we going against an animal's consent when we adopt it?

And what is so bad about an animal having sex with its trainer? Does it in any way harm you?

 

[PastorFreud]

I beg to differ. The animal can be trained to engage in these deplorable acts. And, whose to say its the animal's orifices the bestialite is violating? Yes, lurid, but I have to make this point to see how you can reason this as immorality.

I wasn't really discussing Mosaic law but I agree with you, a lot of the Mosaic law is not for us, seeing that ancient Judaism was culture-specific.

Animals do not appear to be aware of their own existence. I am not really an expert on beastiality, so I could be wrong. Maybe you should have sex with them. I am more aware of the problems with 20 year old guy and a 15 year old girl. This would be acceptable under Mosaic law, but not under US law.

I know you weren't arguing Mosaic law, but that was the discussion you jumped in on. The author of the OP argued for rejecting most Mosaic laws, but holding on to a few with no real criteria for selection explained. You may find Jesus' law faulty, but I believe it is demonstrably more appropriate that Moses law as a foundation for choosing what is right and what is wrong.

 

[EltronRangamma]

Maybe you should have sex with them.

Nah, not my cup of tea, brougham.

 

[Rocinante]

Yes, homophobes are enamored with the ugly comparison of homosexuality to bestiality.

There IS no valid comparison, but it does graphically illustrate both their desperation and their hate.

 

[transientlife]

Right, so why do we give people the right to adopt then? Aren't we going against an animal's consent when we adopt it?

And what is so bad about an animal having sex with its trainer? Does it in any way harm you?

If you read my previous post I covered the idea of their "consent" . And when you adopt out an animal, it's meant to give that animal a second chance at life in a loving home instead of ending up in the backroom with a bloodstream full of euthasol (unless it's a no-kill shelter). Adopting an animal to prevent it from ending up as part of the unwanted dead seems like a positive, beneficial thing to the animal and not harming it or taking advantage of its 'ignorance' for personal gain or pleasure. I'm not too aware of shelters adopting out animals as sex objects, so to speak. Can you imagine if that was the case? PETA and other animal rights and welfare groups would be knocking down the doors of shelters! What's bad about an animal having sex with its trainer is the fact that beastiality is condemned by the Bible for one, but also it's bad just because the animal is defenseless party to it. They don't have any concept of right and wrong from a human standpoint, their loyalty, desire to please, and their ignorance is being abused just as they are.

 

[jessedance]

we had a teen who was born again and spirit filled, he had visions from god. but he decided to live the homosexual lifestyle when he grew up and gave it all up. you can be born again and do anything you want after you become a christian. lots do. im sure lots of homosexuals have had the born again experience, im sure some of them even know god. i think they will be cast into hell unless they repent someday but god i s still working on them. lots of christians go to church and get drunk on sat or fri nite. gods still working on them. if they don't eventualy repent they too will be cast inot hell.

 

[fejao]

For the first time in my life, I am personally aquainted with a number of openly gay and lesbian individuals, many of which are religious. I find almost all of them as sincere and heartfelt in their spiritual zeal as any other Christian, but it seems to me the Bible is explicity clear that homosexuality in any form is a sin. Can christianity embrace and accept gays and lesbians? I am not sure what my opinion is myself?

Well of course christianity can embrace homosexual, Christ died for "whosoever". His blood poured out on the cross is able to blot out any sin, even homosexuality if you consider it one. We hear the phrase "love the sinner, hate the sin" However most of us focus mostly on hating the sin, which in turns to hate towards the people/group if we are being totally honest. At the roots we are all sinners, unworthy of Gods GIFT of acceptance/salvation....we dont earn it by pious religion or by looking externally as a good christian. We dont get Christs gift of acceptance by climbing the mountain, we recieve it as a gift. Lets look at it another way, we are all sinners, I am a sinner however I manage to love myself and dont condem myself to hell because of my numerous daily sins, can we not apply this to homosexuals? Do we have enough grace in out lives to do this? Can we not extend the hand of Jesus to the homosexuals, to the drug addicts to the prostitutes, Jesus did why cant we? Yes you might not agree with homosexuality, however is grace working enough in your life to sacrifce your oppinions to show love to the dejected of society, of the church? This is a high calling, but one Jesus showed....Jesus said that you would know his people by their love ! Cant we at least show love, even if its difficult? Is that not what a true christian is about?

Fejao x

 

[Ruthiefan]

Personally i no longer care what other "christians" think of my sexuality,these people have had far too much power over me for far to long! I gay God know's im gay and God loves me! that's all that matters to me.

If they don't like who i am that's their problem. If they are too small minded to let my sexuality get in the way of friendship that's to bad they could be pushing away the best friend they have ever had!!

 

[transientlife]

Very good points! Bravo!

Well of course christianity can embrace homosexual, Christ died for "whosoever". His blood poured out on the cross is able to blot out any sin, even homosexuality if you consider it one. We hear the phrase "love the sinner, hate the sin" However most of us focus mostly on hating the sin, which in turns to hate towards the people/group if we are being totally honest. At the roots we are all sinners, unworthy of Gods GIFT of acceptance/salvation....we dont earn it by pious religion or by looking externally as a good christian. We dont get Christs gift of acceptance by climbing the mountain, we recieve it as a gift. Lets look at it another way, we are all sinners, I am a sinner however I manage to love myself and dont condem myself to hell because of my numerous daily sins, can we not apply this to homosexuals? Do we have enough grace in out lives to do this? Can we not extend the hand of Jesus to the homosexuals, to the drug addicts to the prostitutes, Jesus did why cant we? Yes you might not agree with homosexuality, however is grace working enough in your life to sacrifce your oppinions to show love to the dejected of society, of the church? This is a high calling, but one Jesus showed....Jesus said that you would know his people by their love ! Cant we at least show love, even if its difficult? Is that not what a true christian is about?
Fejao x

 

[cabrown]

I know you weren't arguing Mosaic law, but that was the discussion you jumped in on. The author of the OP argued for rejecting most Mosaic laws, but holding on to a few with no real criteria for selection explained. You may find Jesus' law faulty, but I believe it is demonstrably more appropriate that Moses law as a foundation for choosing what is right and what is wrong.

That was not my argument in the slightest. Obviously the new gospel of Christ usurps the law of Moses. But many of the laws of Moses are redundant in the gospel of Christ, such as murder and lying. So I was saying you can't necessarily say just because it's in the OT that it is irrelevent to us today. Please don't try to assigning me positions that I don't have, just so you can argue the other side.

 

[cabrown]

Well of course christianity can embrace homosexual, Christ died for "whosoever". His blood poured out on the cross is able to blot out any sin, even homosexuality if you consider it one. We hear the phrase "love the sinner, hate the sin" However most of us focus mostly on hating the sin, which in turns to hate towards the people/group if we are being totally honest. At the roots we are all sinners, unworthy of Gods GIFT of acceptance/salvation....we dont earn it by pious religion or by looking externally as a good christian. We dont get Christs gift of acceptance by climbing the mountain, we recieve it as a gift. Lets look at it another way, we are all sinners, I am a sinner however I manage to love myself and dont condem myself to hell because of my numerous daily sins, can we not apply this to homosexuals? Do we have enough grace in out lives to do this? Can we not extend the hand of Jesus to the homosexuals, to the drug addicts to the prostitutes, Jesus did why cant we? Yes you might not agree with homosexuality, however is grace working enough in your life to sacrifce your oppinions to show love to the dejected of society, of the church? This is a high calling, but one Jesus showed....Jesus said that you would know his people by their love ! Cant we at least show love, even if its difficult? Is that not what a true christian is about?

Fejao x

My question is: can we talk about the subject of homosexuality in the context of Christianity without automatically being termed a bigot and homophobe. I have not been hateful or spiteful in any of my comments, and I obviously don't think I have any right to hate gays because of their acts, wrong or right. I have enough sins of my own. I am talking about the act of homosexuality, which we as Christians and members of society should have a position on. I don't understand why this discussion keeps getting shoved off into "you're hate/i have a right to" conversation. I think discussions like those are worse than worthless.

 

[transientlife]

My question is: can we talk about the subject of homosexuality in the context of Christianity without automatically being termed a bigot and homophobe. I have not been hateful or spiteful in any of my comments, and I obviously don't think I have any right to hate gays because of their acts, wrong or right. I have enough sins of my own. I am talking about the act of homosexuality, which we as Christians and members of society should have a position on. I don't understand why this discussion keeps getting shoved off into "you're hate/i have a right to" conversation. I think discussions like those are worse than worthless.

I think so. I find no problems with those that think homosexuality is wrong, as long as they are not hateful towards homosexuals, treat them any differently, or intend any kind of harm, emotional, mental or otherwise. It's those that are outwardly pressing about their negative views that should have the labels as bigots or homophobes. The bible states homosexuality is wrong (at least in the traditional interpretation), but that does not change my attitude toward a homosexual person at all, they're still human regardless of their sin - just like the rest of us, so why should it exclude them from being loved.

 

[UberLutheran]

It is important when we study the scriptures to try to see things form God's point of view rather than a given side. In other words, to study the scriptures from the standpoint of how a homosexual would study it, allows for justifications of what is written in the Word. The same is true if I study the scriptures from the standpoint of someone who believes homosexuality to be wrong, I am tempted to justify my own prejeduce. When we study the scripture to seek truth, we must purpose our hearts and minds to see what God intends for us, thus we at least have a chance at seeing truth without the justifications.

and I heard the the following:

"Servants, be obedient to those who according to the flesh are your masters, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as to Christ" (Ephesians 6:5; Colossians 3:22)

I would know not to find my slavery to my Christian master objectionable -- even while he and his family are inside enjoying a lavish Easter dinner while I was outside picking cotton in his fields, for this is what the Lord intended?

I don't think so.

If you really want to get towards the real meat of Scripture, try reading it as a woman might read it; or someone who is living in abject poverty in a Third World country might read it; or as someone who is gay or lesbian might read it; or as someone who is a (displaced) Native American might read it.

God, and the Scriptures, are not the exclusive property of affluent, privileged, white, heterosexual North Americans.

 

[transientlife]

Good points, and I'm sure people who quote certain passages (especially in the OT) do not look at the entire context of the passage and how it relates to the time period then and not now. Just something I've read somewhere before.