Is there salvation without Mary?

[bbbbbbb]

Is there evidence for what you think here? The passage you cite doesn't specify which person He has half-siblings from (if it even specifies this at all).

You obviously cling to your denomination's dogma of the perpetual virginity of Mary and, perforce, must ignore the five statements in the four gospels concerning the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ and, when confronted, must fall back on a highly dubious explanation which makes these individuals completely unrelated to Jesus Christ - not being actual brothers and sisters or even half-brothers and half-sisters, having Mary as their common parent. In RCC theology they just happened to have been on the scene prior to the birth of Jesus Christ and were probably out of the household long before He was born to Mary. In the same way, Mary and Joseph never consummated their marriage and thus were qualified for an annulment of their marriage, having lived as housemates, probably having separate bedrooms. And we know this all because of fully complete and detailed accounts provided by nocturnal witnesses who watched everything that happened between Joseph and Mary.

By the way, I have a spectacular bridge for sale very cheap.

 

[Abaxvahl]

You obviously cling to your denomination's dogma of the perpetual virginity of Mary and, perforce, must ignore the five statements in the four gospels concerning the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ and, when confronted, must fall back on a highly dubious explanation which makes these individuals completely unrelated to Jesus Christ - not being actual brothers and sisters or even half-brothers and half-sisters, having Mary as their common parent. In RCC theology they just happened to have been on the scene prior to the birth of Jesus Christ and were probably out of the household long before He was born to Mary. In the same way, Mary and Joseph never consummated their marriage and thus were qualified for an annulment of their marriage, having lived as housemates, probably having separate bedrooms. And we know this all because of fully complete and detailed accounts provided by nocturnal witnesses who watched everything that happened between Joseph and Mary.

By the way, I have a spectacular bridge for sale very cheap.

I do not ignore the statements, I think He had brothers and sisters. Moreover Mary and Joseph had a natural marriage, and a marriage can be ratified and not consummated. I do not think they lived as just housemates. They Perpetual Virginity is a throw-away issue to me, one settled by superior topics and not really worth going on about, but I do sometimes for fun.

 

[robycop3]

You obviously cling to your denomination's dogma of the perpetual virginity of Mary and, perforce, must ignore the five statements in the four gospels concerning the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ and, when confronted, must fall back on a highly dubious explanation which makes these individuals completely unrelated to Jesus Christ - not being actual brothers and sisters or even half-brothers and half-sisters, having Mary as their common parent. In RCC theology they just happened to have been on the scene prior to the birth of Jesus Christ and were probably out of the household long before He was born to Mary. In the same way, Mary and Joseph never consummated their marriage and thus were qualified for an annulment of their marriage, having lived as housemates, probably having separate bedrooms. And we know this all because of fully complete and detailed accounts provided by nocturnal witnesses who watched everything that happened between Joseph and Mary.

By the way, I have a spectacular bridge for sale very cheap.

I believe the RCC got that false doctrine from the Greek legend of Athene which was around when the RCC began.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I believe the RCC got that false doctrine from the Greek legend of Athene which was around when the RCC began.

Agreed. There was a very heady brew of religious beliefs in the culture of the day and it was a simple step to absorb some of them. Syncretism has been one of the major sources of trouble within Christiantiy both then and now. Today in Vietnam there are many Catholics who perceive Mary on the order of Buddha's primary assistant (which is Vietnamese Buddhism is a woman with 1,000 arms dispensing kindness and mercy). Some have gone so far as to include Mary in the Godhead and worship her as God, even as the Buddhists worship their woman deity.

 

[Albion]

I am not sure how you define Tradition, but in the context of the idea of Sacred Tradition it is not some passively received thing which is just "old stuff people used to do."

It is the handing-down (what the word literally means) of the life of the Church, which ultimately is the Holy Spirit. We receive actively and expound on it in our context while being faithful to it and then teach it to the next generation.

It is interpreting the former (1st paragraph above) to mean the latter (2nd paragraph).

If we instead interpreted rain to mean that God is angry, it would have approximately the same value.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Agreed. There was a very heady brew of religious beliefs in the culture of the day and it was a simple step to absorb some of them. Syncretism has been one of the major sources of trouble within Christiantiy both then and now. Today in Vietnam there are many Catholics who perceive Mary on the order of Buddha's primary assistant (which is Vietnamese Buddhism is a woman with 1,000 arms dispensing kindness and mercy). Some have gone so far as to include Mary in the Godhead and worship her as God, even as the Buddhists worship their woman deity.

When Constantine made Christianity the official religion of Rome, he closed the pagan temples and repurposed them to be Christian churches. As a result pagans and Christians worshiped together, and a mixture of pagan and Christian came into the church and many pagan worship practices were "Christianized". This mixture of Christian and pagan evolved into the RCC, and this is where Mary worship came from.

 

[prodromos]

When Constantine made Christianity the official religion of Rome, he closed the pagan temples and repurposed them to be Christian churches. As a result pagans and Christians worshiped together, and a mixture of pagan and Christian came into the church and many pagan worship practices were "Christianized". This mixture of Christian and pagan evolved into the RCC, and this is where Mary worship came from.

You need to read actual history. Everything you posted above is false.

 

[Abaxvahl]

When Constantine made Christianity the official religion of Rome, he closed the pagan temples and repurposed them to be Christian churches. As a result pagans and Christians worshiped together, and a mixture of pagan and Christian came into the church and many pagan worship practices were "Christianized". This mixture of Christian and pagan evolved into the RCC, and this is where Mary worship came from.

Prove every claim in this.

 

[Not David]

I don't know what's the purpose with lying about Christian History, I guess they are more likely to trust the Atheist claims that Jesus came from Egyptian religion

 

[Valletta]

You obviously cling to your denomination's dogma of the perpetual virginity of Mary and, perforce, must ignore the five statements in the four gospels concerning the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ and, when confronted, must fall back on a highly dubious explanation which makes these individuals completely unrelated to Jesus Christ - not being actual brothers and sisters or even half-brothers and half-sisters, having Mary as their common parent. In RCC theology they just happened to have been on the scene prior to the birth of Jesus Christ and were probably out of the household long before He was born to Mary. In the same way, Mary and Joseph never consummated their marriage and thus were qualified for an annulment of their marriage, having lived as housemates, probably having separate bedrooms. And we know this all because of fully complete and detailed accounts provided by nocturnal witnesses who watched everything that happened between Joseph and Mary.

By the way, I have a spectacular bridge for sale very cheap.

There are so many cases in the Bible where the word "brother" is used for those without the same mother, yet you insist that your personal interpretation must mean Mary had other children. Additionally, when the Angel Gabriel told Mary that she would have a son, and she asked how that could be because she knew not man, that means she must have had taken a vow of virginity. You may argue the writers of the Bible wanted to ridicule Mary because she did not know basic human biology. You have a right to your own personal but fallible interpretations. I am well aware of the centuries of attempts to prove that Catholic faith, somehow, contradicts the Bible. Remember that the Catholic Church chose those 73 books of the Bible, no Catholic Church, no Bible.

 

[bbbbbbb]

There are so many cases in the Bible where the word "brother" is used for those without the same mother, yet you insist that your personal interpretation must mean Mary had other children. Additionally, when the Angel Gabriel told Mary that she would have a son, and she asked how that could be because she knew not man, that means she must have had taken a vow of virginity. You may argue the writers of the Bible wanted to ridicule Mary because she did not know basic human biology. You have a right to your own personal but fallible interpretations. I am well aware of the centuries of attempts to prove that Catholic faith, somehow, contradicts the Bible. Remember that the Catholic Church chose those 73 books of the Bible, no Catholic Church, no Bible.

When did the RCC first exist as a stand-alone denomination? Why did it wait until the Council of Trent to confirm its canon of 73 books of the Bible?

Do you believe that the EOC were actually the RCC prior to the Great Schism?

 

[Valletta]

When did the RCC first exist as a stand-alone denomination? Why did it wait until the Council of Trent to confirm its canon of 73 books of the Bible?

Do you believe that the EOC were actually the RCC prior to the Great Schism?

"Catholic" means "universal" and the word "Catholic" was used at least as far back as around the end of the first century. You are misinformed--Saint Athanasius is credited with the first Biblical canon (NT) containing the same books in the same order we use today. The list was approved by Pope Damasus, and formally approved of by Councils at Hippo and Carthage in the late 300s. Pope Innocent I wrote a letter to the Bishop of Toulouse in 405 A.D. containing the list. The list was re-affirmed at Carthage in 419 A.D., by the Council of Florence 1442 A.D., and by the Council of Trent in 1546 A.D. As to the Great Schism, before that was one universal and Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has a number of rites, one is the Roman rite.

 

[bbbbbbb]

"Catholic" means "universal" and the word "Catholic" was used at least as far back as around the end of the first century. You are misinformed--Saint Athanasius is credited with the first Biblical canon (NT) containing the same books in the same order we use today. The list was approved by Pope Damasus, and formally approved of by Councils at Hippo and Carthage in the late 300s. Pope Innocent I wrote a letter to the Bishop of Toulouse in 405 A.D. containing the list. The list was re-affirmed at Carthage in 419 A.D., by the Council of Florence 1442 A.D., and by the Council of Trent in 1546 A.D. As to the Great Schism, before that was one universal and Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has a number of rites, one is the Roman rite.

Please note that my question was not about the Catholic church, but about your particular denomination, the Roman Catholic Church. Do you believe that prior to the Great Schism all of the Orthodox churches were actually Roman Catholic Churches?

 

[Valletta]

Please note that my question was not about the Catholic church, but about your particular denomination, the Roman Catholic Church. Do you believe that prior to the Great Schism all of the Orthodox churches were actually Roman Catholic Churches?

I hope I cleared up the false information you had expressed regarding the Bible. The popes and Catholic Church Councils affirmed the canon more than a thousand years before you claimed. I often have suggested that people ask a Catholic before posting information found on anti-Catholic websites.
My Church is the Catholic Church, there are a number of rites, including a "Latin" or "Roman" rite. We are not members of any denomination. We have a Catechism that contains a lot of information on the Church, it is a very lengthy book, there is an online copy put out by the Vatican at Catechism of the Catholic Church
Note the first line is "CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH."

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You need to read actual history. Everything you posted above is false.

I am open for correction if you have better historical information.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Prove every claim in this.

There is someone on this thread who has better historical information, so I will wait to see what he comes up with.

 

[prodromos]

I am open for correction if you have better historical information.

Constantine legalized Christianity which ended the persecution of the Church, but he never made Christianity the official religion of Rome. You are thinking of Justinian.
Pagans did not engage in Christian worship as a result of pagan temples being repurposed as churches. If they went anywhere, they went underground.
The Churches understanding of Mary had been settled in the Council of Ephesus in 431AD, almost a century before Justinian, so your claim of Mary 'worship' being the result of pagan influence due to pagans mingling with Christians in the repurposed temples is completely without merit.
I hope that you were simply repeating something you read somewhere else (possibly Alexander Hislop) and it wasn't something you came up with yourself.

 

[robycop3]

There are so many cases in the Bible where the word "brother" is used for those without the same mother, yet you insist that your personal interpretation must mean Mary had other children. Additionally, when the Angel Gabriel told Mary that she would have a son, and she asked how that could be because she knew not man, that means she must have had taken a vow of virginity. You may argue the writers of the Bible wanted to ridicule Mary because she did not know basic human biology. You have a right to your own personal but fallible interpretations. I am well aware of the centuries of attempts to prove that Catholic faith, somehow, contradicts the Bible. Remember that the Catholic Church chose those 73 books of the Bible, no Catholic Church, no Bible.

There's absolutely NO Scriptural evidence that Mary took a vow of virginity. She simply asked how she could become pregnant without ever having had sex with a man.

And there are only 66 boox in the Bible. The Apocrypha are not considered Scripture by Christians.

 

[Valletta]

There's absolutely NO Scriptural evidence that Mary took a vow of virginity. She simply asked how she could become pregnant without ever having had sex with a man.

And there are only 66 boox in the Bible. The Apocrypha are not considered Scripture by Christians.

All European Christians had 73 books in their Bibles from the time the Catholic Church chose the 73 books up until the Protestant reformation, over a thousand years before some new religions dropped books. When the Church chose the canon in the 300s all apocryphal books were rejected. Mary was betrothed, the angel told her that she would have a son in the future, and she asked how that could be.

 

[prodromos]

There's absolutely NO Scriptural evidence that Mary took a vow of virginity. She simply asked how she could become pregnant without ever having had sex with a man.

The grammar of her statement is continuous, she is "not knowing a man", which is inconsistent with a bride who is expecting to have sexual relations with her soon to be husband. Her statement is completely consistent with the kind of vows described in Numbers 30, so your statement that there is "no scriptural evidence" is false.