Is there really a 1000 year reign ?

yeah really, I should know better than to go back and forth with these preterists.. there's never anything good that comes out of it.. oh well..

I'm curious as to whether anyone else believes that the beast and his false prophet were taken in 410 AD and thrown into the lake of fire then...while the armies of the earth were gathered together against the Lord and His army..? ?

Perhaps he's the only one.. I don't ever recall hearing that before from anyone.. it's usually the 70AD type of response.. but this 410 AD is something new to my ears.. has anyone else even heard of that before..?

FreeinChrist said:

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I'm not attempting to hijack the thread, parousia. My comment was in line with what was being written. You wrote:
"You argue, by extention, that the Revelation of Jesus Christ was not applicable to those who first received it, by arguing that it decribes events ordained to come to pass thousands of years after thier lifetime."

You wrote that in an attempt to support this:
Your claim that the Revelation of Jesus Christ was not FOR those Christians who FIRST received it dosen't hold up under any sober scrutiny.


You should really try and stop 'putting words in other people's mouths' -

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What's your point Free?
You still believe the Revelation of Jesus Christ was not FOR those who first received it.

If I'm wrong to say that, please describe in what ways it was applicable to them, whether they received in in 68 or 96.

Why would it be? John didn't address it at all in his gospel or letters (written around 80 AD) and it was not the topic of Revelation.

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Well, you previously argued from the premise that prophesy given in the Bible that has no biblical record of fulfillment, must therefore not yet be fulfilled.

That's why I asked about The prophesy of the temple's destruction.

FreeinChrist said:

Just like a preterist - always ignoring context.
Why would that particular comment apply to me as far as Timonthy going to the Philipians.

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I dunno Free, perhaps because the text says Paul wished for Jesus to send timothy to YOU shortly. Why wouldn't it apply?

Why on earth then, is that particular scripture, which you claim has no application to you, even in your Bible?
Isn't it just "lifeless history"?

And a great many disagree that the Old Covenant was in effect until 70 AD - instead, that God made it clear that it ended on His part by the tearing of the veil in the temple when Christ died. That veil separated the people from the Holy of Holies, a place only a high priest could go once a year. It was a big part of the Old Covenant. If it was stopped on God's end - that is all that matters.

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*Sigh*
Paul is clear that the Jews post crusifixion were still "under the Law", yet you argue against his claim.

The writer of Hebrews is clear that the Old Covenant, at the time of the writing of Hebrews, was "growing old and ready to vanish" yet you argue it "Vanished" decades earlier.

That is ridiculous reasoning. I am sorry but it is . The Israelites who wandered the wilderness had to because they disobeyed and it took 40 years for the generation to die.

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You mean to tell me that a biblical "generation" is 40 years long?

And the burden of the Israelites in the wilderness was caused by their own disobedience.

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And the Burden that befel the Jews between 30 & 70 wasn't caused by theor own disobedience?
How so?

WE have the same burden as all those in church since it began - to preach the gospel to all the world...but wait - that is another thing you think was completed by 70 AD

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Actually, The Apostolic Burden was to preach the Gospel to the Roman Empire, and it was accomplished before Pauls ministry ended, as recorded in scripture.

I beleive that Satan is still active in the world...that there is STILL the forces of evil active in the world.

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Yes, and.....?
Satan will always be active infulencing unbelievers. Unbelievers will NEVER share in Christ and the Churches Victory over him. Even as He is tormented forever in the presence of the Lamb, his evil and influence is fully functioning in the Dogs, sorcerors and murderers who work their iniquity right outside New Jerusalems Gates.

YOU are trying, in a very pathetically obvious way, to place words in my mouth that I am not saying. I never said they are ABOVE Christ, parousia. You really need to stop doing that - it is wrong.

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How can anyone operate beyond Christ's authority without possessing authority equal or above his?

There will be a time in the future, parousia, when His is the ONLY name heard - not Buddha, or any of the Hindu gods, or any other name that is worshipped today.

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Really?
That time is now, for those of us in Full unity with Christ. His is the only name aknowledged.

Yet the Dogs, soreceors, etc will forever work their iniquity just ouitside the Gates of the New Jerusalem, in full unity with Hell and Satan in His torment.

Are you arguing for annhilation here?

ross3421 said:

Tavita,


Check this thread out as there are really some good discussions....... Though I believe that there is no millenial reign and I guess be called Amill I do not believe that we are living in this reign today. Simply put that Christ returns and set up an eternal kingdom......

Mark.

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Mark,

I will check it out this thread out, but it'll take some time. After a quick look through there seems to be a lot of confusion and mixed up theories.
I'm not Amill, even though some of it 'sounds' good. I do believe in a literal 1000 years.

Tavs

There are just too many scriptures that speak of a literal millinniel reign of Messiah over the land and this world on a last "day" of the Lord or 1000 years which is the seventh day before the eigth day. The seventh day is the one of rest, and the world will rest for that 1000 years under which He will reign with "a rod of iron". This is the time where Jerusalem finally becomes a true city of peace and the lamb lays down with the lion. The eigth day in Hebrew means resurrection or rejuvination - "to super-abound", and follows the last day of the Lord with the white throne judgment and then, finally, the new heavens and earth of eternity.

Isaiah 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

Ezek 36:24-28 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your Elohim.

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Luke 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Revelations 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den.

Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent’s meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Zec 14:Zech. 14:1 ¶ Watch, for the day of the LORD is coming when your possessions will be plundered right in front of you!
2 On that day I will gather all the nations to fight against Jerusalem. The city will be taken, the houses plundered, and the women raped. Half the population will be taken away into captivity, and half will be left among the ruins of the city.
3 Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as he has fought in times past.
4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives will split apart, making a wide valley running from east to west, for half the mountain will move toward the north and half toward the south.
5 You will flee through this valley, for it will reach across to Azal. Yes, you will flee as you did from the earthquake in the days of King Uzziah of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all his holy ones with him.
6 On that day the sources of light will no longer shine,
7 yet there will be continuous day! Only the LORD knows how this could happen! There will be no normal day and night, for at evening time it will still be light.
8 ¶ On that day life-giving waters will flow out from Jerusalem, half toward the Dead Sea and half toward the Mediterranean, flowing continuously both in summer and in winter.
9 And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day there will be one LORD—his name alone will be worshiped.
10 All the land from Geba, north of Judah, to Rimmon, south of Jerusalem, will become one vast plain. But Jerusalem will be raised up in its original place and will be inhabited all the way from the Benjamin Gate over to the site of the old gate, then to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.
11 And Jerusalem will be filled, safe at last, never again to be cursed and destroyed.
12 And the LORD will send a plague on all the nations that fought against Jerusalem. Their people will become like walking corpses, their flesh rotting away. Their eyes will shrivel in their sockets, and their tongues will decay in their mouths.
13 On that day they will be terrified, stricken by the LORD with great panic. They will fight against each other in hand-to-hand combat;
14 Judah, too, will be fighting at Jerusalem. The wealth of all the neighboring nations will be captured—great quantities of gold and silver and fine clothing.
15 This same plague will strike the horses, mules, camels, donkeys, and all the other animals in the enemy camps.
16 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
17 And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.
18 If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the LORD smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
19 This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

Revelation 12:5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne."

ross3421 said:

You need to look at these verses again.........

"Neither shall they learn war any more"


Thus it would be impossible for there to be a BATTLE during or at the end of a supposed 1000 years.

Re 20:8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.




Mark.

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THE ECONOMY of the 1000 years is a farm economy..

they are suppose to bring the food to the New Jersalem... there rebellion is like the european farmers bring there tractors and protesting

A Brother In Christ said:

THE ECONOMY of the 1000 years is a farm economy..

they are suppose to bring the food to the New Jersalem... there rebellion is like the european farmers bring there tractors and protesting

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you mean they are slaves before God punishes them in a lake of fire, (since all the elect have already been resurrected and raptured and transformed, right?
Waht is the point of delaying the eternal kingdom for an earthly one, what has NOT been accomplished already by the great commission, evangelization? HAVE not all already come out of her?

This confuses me and I wonder how one comes up to certain conclusions by direct biblical inference of why there is a delay in the eternal kingdom ....

Carmine, (confused)

Hi Ross

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2pe 3:10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

This destruction is immediate and thus the replacement must be immediate thus no earth nor heaven would exsist during a supposed 1000 year. In addition, if you agree that there is a new heaven and new earth for the 1000 years then you are saying that destruction to the old earth and heaven happens twice or that it happens a 1000 years later but scripture does not back this.

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No you are missing a very important piece of what Peter says

8: But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

This is the Qualifier that Peter puts on the Day of the Lord. Early Christianity clearly understood Judgement day as a Thousand year period. We know for sure that John’s church at Ephesus understood Judgement day in this light.

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Satan destroyed upon Christ's return

2th 2:8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:2th 2:9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

We see both Satan (the Wicked) and his son of perdition both destroyed upon Christ's return so how can this happen 1000 years later.?

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The very verse you quote clearly shows that is not talking about the Devil it is talking about the Beast………The beasts workings are after the Devil he is not the devil he works like the devil………….the beast out of the pit IS NOT THE DEVIL.

Here is the beast going to the lake of Fire

Rev 19:20: And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Then The devil is cast into the pit ……………….the pit is not the lake of Fire it is a place of Darkness not Fire.

To further prove this separation and that these two Being are in fact different beings we read further in Rev 20

7: And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Here we see Satan gets out of the pit which is really just a prison. And then He is thrown in the Lake of Fire.

10: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

How much clearer can it get your whole premise is just wrong because you do not seem to understand that there are Two different beings being talked about here.

There is the Beast

The beast is locked in the pit right now

Rev 17:8: The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

he is the King of the fallen Angles locked in the pit held by Chains of Darkness.

11: And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

4: For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to the pit, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

And There is the Devil Who roams the world at the present.

1Pt:5:8: Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

These are two different beings clearly defined as such going to the lake of fire 1,000 years apart.

One at the start of Judgement day……………….and one at the end of judgement day.

Judgement day as I stated above is as 1,000 years.

Sorry but you are mistaken in this thread your whole premise is based on a lack of understanding on the difference between the Beast and the Devil.

carminejulie said:

you mean they are slaves before God punishes them in a lake of fire, (since all the elect have already been resurrected and raptured and transformed, right?
Waht is the point of delaying the eternal kingdom for an earthly one, what has NOT been accomplished already by the great commission, evangelization? HAVE not all already come out of her?

This confuses me and I wonder how one comes up to certain conclusions by direct biblical inference of why there is a delay in the eternal kingdom ....

Carmine, (confused)

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God is always right... first off

God is teaching other than just us.... 1 peter 1:12

during the 1000 years reign ...people only have their flesh as there enemy...Satan is in prison and since the ruler of the world system is bounded so it the world system...

people can still believe that God is ruling from the New Jersalem... but unbelievers can rule their flesh so that angels will not throw them into Hell or cut off which offends... Matt 6;13

God is teaching angels and also the saints that are glorified already

ross3421 said:

Does Christ come to set up a temporal kingdom?

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No for his kingdom is spiritual.

The whole problem with the way Revelation is used in much of the modern Church is that it is often read as an historical narrative and it is nothing of the sort. It does fortell future events but in the form of apocalyptic literature - a literary genre that generally does not follow a straight narrative form. Rather than either reading it like a checklist of woes to occur or spiritualizing it out of existence, we should read it within its own symbolism.

The approach I outline here is not something novel to me by the way - it goes back to the ante-Nicene Church. First we can divide the book into seven sections comprising chapters 1-3, 4-7, 8-11, 13-14, 15-16, 17-19, and 20-22. The theme of "seven" echoes throughout: seven leters, seven bowls, etc. Each of the sections covers salvation history focusing on a particular vantage point but basically are views of the age of the Church. Numbers are always symbolic in apocalyptic literature and the thousand years is just an extended but not fixed period of time.

The telling of the story of salvation is repetitive but each telling focuses on something different. For chapters 17-19, the focal point is the second coming and this is given in the most detail but later events are just assumed. The last section gives center stage to the final judgment. The jump from the chapter 19 second coming to chapter 20 is not to be read chronologically. In chapter 20 the story starts over again. The binding of Satan occurs with Christ's victory over death. Until then, Satan had power and man could only cling to the promise of a Redeemer. Now death was vanquished and so is Satan's power over us.

The evil one can try as he may but will never be able to stop the power of the Gospel. All those with faith in the Lord Jesus are free from death. He may lead men to persecute us, torture us, and even kill us in this life, but because of the cross he cannot truly kill us - as St. Paul wrote, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." For a short period at the end, he will be unbound and the spread of the Gospel will also largely end. But he has no victory. The victory already belongs to King Jesus on the cross and he is helpless against it.

If you live in Manchester, sometimes there is 1000 year rain.

I think you are missing the point. Whether numbers can be taken as symbols depends on the literary genre. In apocalyptic literature, yes. In historical narratives, no. Your argument is a straw man.

yeshuasavedme said:

Do you think the six days of evenings and mornings of the creation week were just symbolical?
Did the waters of the flood of Noah's time cover the entire earth and was he in the ark for a year ? -or is it just a symbolical year for a symbolical flood?

Did Noah have three sons and three daughters in law -or is that just a symbolical number for symbolical peeple?

Was Jesus Christ's body in the tomb for three full evenings and mornings -or is it just a symbolical three days?

Were the children of israel wandering in the desert for 40 years -or was it just a symbolical forty years?

Did Jesus Christ rise from the dead in His own human being body -or is it just a symbolical rising?

Did the first Adam exist -or is Adam symbolical? -careful on that one -lest you illusion 'yourself' out of existence.

Did God make Eve out of Adam's side -or is that a symbolical tale?

Did Jesus Christ ascend into heaven after the forty days after he rose from the dead? -or is that just a symbolical ascending?

Did Jesus really feed the four and the five thousands of men on just a few loaves and fish, multiplied -or is it all symbolical?
What is a long time? then and who is the judge of it?
In fact, if all is symbolical what is all symbolical of -and where did you get your symbolical interpretation from and are you deluded by delusions of symbols, anyway?

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Satan had power and man could only cling to the promise of a Redeemer. Now death was vanquished and so is Satan's power over us.

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Excuse me but I seem to remember reading a warning about Satan:
"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:" (1 Pet. 5:8)
And that Satan is also:
"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:" (Eph. 2:2)

Now while we are not to submit to Satan, he still is a powerful presence in this world.

How does that contradict what I wrote? St. Paul warns us to be vigilant - those who turn their backs on the faith will surely be devoured. But he has any claim on those who place their trust in the Lord Jesus. His spirit is indeed working in the children of disobedience. But he cannot keep us from our God. The debt is paid in full and we who are washed in the blood of the Lamb will live forever no matter what Satan and his dominions do. Rejoice! The victory is won! We merely await His coming in glory and the judgement of the living and the dead whose kingdom WILL HAVE NO END.

DeaconDean said:

Excuse me but I seem to remember reading a warning about Satan:
"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:" (1 Pet. 5:8)
And that Satan is also:
"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:" (Eph. 2:2)

Now while we are not to submit to Satan, he still is a powerful presence in this world.

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