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Whereas I think we can argue a value to be a fact. Just like a value of a math equation is a fact.
Here's something I think both sides of this debate can agree upon: human nature is fundamentally flawed. There are different levels, but basically every human being on earth is slightly (at least) insane morally and rationally.
Thoughts?
Flawed according to whom?
Good question. You obviously know how I would answer this question as a Christian... but how would you answer it?
I wouldnt as I dont agree.
Really? Way to dodge the question. Very well done! But, the question remains... how do you determine whether humans in general, or individually, are flawed?
Do people appeal to "Justice". If they do then there is the measure. Its peoples own behaviour that makes "Justice" an independent moral truth.Ok, then how do we measure beauty? Justice? If values can be facts then they can be measured, quantified. So show me how you do that.
"Flawed" is a value judgement, how do a not-flawed human look and act?
If I was, that would be a value judgement, if I wasnt, that would also be a value-judgement. None of them ”objective”.So you make no value judgments? Interesting. How does that work itself out if I think it's a good idea to repeatedly smack you in the face? Are you ok with that?
No, thats not how values work.Do people appeal to "Justice". If they do then there is the measure. Its peoples own behaviour that makes "Justice" an independent moral truth.
People cry out for justice like it really matters more than our subjective tastes or having no value at all. They want justice to stand beyond peoples personal opinions. So people lock "Justice" into some law or guide that we need to use for "Justice" to really count. Otherwise there is no justice or some arbitrary justice and we know that is counter intuitive.
Beauty is different I think. This is not a moral but is a good example of subjective feelings from the subject but not really saying anything about whether something is really beautiful or not. Though some may argue that beauty can be objectified such as an evenly symetric face seems more attractive.
But this is not theory! People do violent things to others on a daily basis, for any number of reasons... are you ok with that, even if it is done to you or someone close to you?If I was, that would be a value judgement, if I wasnt, that would also be a value-judgement. None of them ”objective”.
Why, of course it matters because if there are objective morals it means there is a measure of what is right and wrong and therefore we know something isnt right. There was a breach of moral obligation by your friend. We react some way because it matters morally.So the objective right wrong in capital punishment and abortion is...?
What I think doesnt matter if morals are "objective".
What I think isnt relevant, Im not an objective agent.Ok, I'm going to just move on, knowing that you would ABSOLUTELY NOT be ok with some random person violently attacking you. So, we can reasonably say that humans in general have a value that people doing violent things to people for the heck of it is wrong. Can we agree on that, or do I have to keep pestering you for an answer you obviously know you can't give in this discussion?
Not believing in ”objective morality” is not the same as saying anyone can do whatever they want (which, in itself would be a moral stance).Why, of course it matters because if there are objective morals it means there is a measure of what is right and wrong and therefore we know something isnt right. There was a breach of moral obligation by your friend. We react some way because it matters morally.
It would be more the case that your friend sleeping with your wife didnt matter if morals were subjective or there were no moral values because there is no measure of right and wrong. But unless you were uncaring or didnt have a conscience wee react to these situations like a moral wrong has been done beyond our subjective selves.
It is counter intuitive that we think "thats OK no wrong done, my friend was only expressing his preferences and feelings morally". That would seem strange to think.
Of course not, why would I?But this is not theory! People do violent things to others on a daily basis, for any number of reasons... are you ok with that, even if it is done to you or someone close to you?
What I think isnt relevant, Im not an objective agent.
To show that something is objective is to show that its true whatever anyone thinks about it.
Not believing in ”objective morality” is not the same as saying anyone can do whatever they want (which, in itself would be a moral stance).
You should really learn the basics of the different schools in moral philodophy.
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