Is there evidence of something beyond nature?

[justlookinla]

Let's look at this great plan, shall we?

1. Create perfect world.
2. Create Perfect Adam.
3. Create perfect Eve from perfect Adam, knowing she will successfully tempt into sin.
4. Create Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
5. Plant Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil next to Adam.
6. Send Satan down to Adam and Eve so he can tempt them as a serpent, knowing he will succeed.
7. Tell Adam not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, knowing already that he will do so.
8. Give perfect creation to Adam, knowing he will sin and give it all away to Satan.
9. Blame Adam for being tempted by the wife you created for him, who was tempted by the fallen angel you send down to her, to eat from the tree you planted so Adam would be tempted to sin.
10. Take thousands of years to "fix" the resulting perfect fallen creation.

Pretty pathetic plan, don't you think?

Pretty pathetic to question God.

 

[Oncedeceived]

And then you turn around and claim that actual design is supported by the appearance of design.

Wow. You finally get it right. I do say that appearance is supportive of actual design. Yet, you continually say that I am claiming that appearance of design is actual design, which I have never claimed.

I think everyone who has read these posts can see who is the dishonest one.

You would think so. You would think that anyone that is reading this and can comprehend the English language that you are twisting my claims toward your own agenda.

LM: Then the universe is as fine tuned for geology as it is biology. That makes it impossible to say that the universe is fine tuned specifically for life.

No one claimed that it was specifically for life. There you go again...twist away. Specifically is added so that it fits better with your agenda.

OD: Really, perhaps you would like to debate Davies and others on their take that it is.

Like I've said and they have written, the universe is fine tuned for intelligent life. They never claimed that the fine tuning was specific for intelligent life. You twist their words as well.

It is your claim. You are implying that scientists would disagree with my position that the universe is NOT specifically fine tuned for just life. You quite obviously imply that Davies and others do believe that the universe was fine tuned specifically for life. Who is being dishonest now?

You. You are being dishonest. I never claimed nor did Davies claim that the universe was specifically fine tuned for just life. You are twisting both claims.

Then your claim is that God did not fine tune the universe?

No, my claim is that the appearance of design supports design. My subjective position is that God fine tuned the universe. They are two separate things.

 

[Smidlee]

"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery .

Cells are far from perfect (e.g. cancer) and very complex. That would be an indication of poor design.

The problems of humanity arise largely because people tend to see only what they want to see.

Which happen to create your brain which according to you must be poor design.

Then it isn't fine tuned.

Not necessary. You can have a fine-tune racecar but it still needs a driver to win the race.

Matter and energy may be fine-tune in order to have organization yet still need code, information, an intelligent being to form stars, galaxies, and especially life.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Which happen to create your brain which according to you must be poor design.

Not necessary. You can have a fine-tune racecar but it still needs a driver to win the race.

Matter and energy may be fine-tune in order to have organization yet still need code, information, an intelligent being to form stars, galaxies, and especially life.

Good points all.

 

[Gracchus]

"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery .

Cells are far from perfect (e.g. cancer) and very complex. That would be an indication of poor design.

Which happen to create your brain which according to you must be poor design.

It has required an excessive amount of care and maintenance. I do the best I can with inadequate equipment.

 

[lasthero]

Of course Adam would sin. He had free will to do so. It is inevitable with free will and a fallen angel tempting people. It is not possible to create humans with free will and not have sin.

God did not send satan to do anything.

Of course we blame Adam and Eve. They are the ones who disobeyed
one simple rule

I usually avoid these sorts of discussions, but I'm a little curious, here.

Okay, we blame Adam and Eve, but you say that it's not possible to create human being with free will and not have sin. So, they were going to sin, that was inevitable because of their nature. If that's the case, how can we blame them for doing something that they had to eventually do because of their very nature. From the way you frame it, they could have done nothing else.

And WHY is it not possible for humans to be created and not have sin? Why couldn't God, who's an all-powerful being, do this? If he's truly omnipotent, he should be able to do anything.

 

[EternalDragon]

I usually avoid these sorts of discussions, but I'm a little curious, here.

Okay, we blame Adam and Eve, but you say that it's not possible to create human being with free will and not have sin. So, they were going to sin, that was inevitable because of their nature. If that's the case, how can we blame them for doing something that they had to eventually do because of their very nature. From the way you frame it, they could have done nothing else.

Adam could have chosen not to sin. Then along comes his son and decides to sin. And so on and so on.

Do we blame pedophiles, even though it is in their nature to do so? Serial killers? Rapists? Are you really advocating we just not blame those kinds of crimes because it is simply in their nature to do those things or do you want to retract your illogical statement?

And WHY is it not possible for humans to be created and not have sin? Why couldn't God, who's an all-powerful being, do this? If he's truly omnipotent, he should be able to do anything.

We'd be mere puppets then. Might as well not even have conscious thought.

 

[lasthero]

Adam could have chosen not to sin.

But you said he couldn't have. You said it's impossible to have humans with free will and not have sin.

Do we blame pedophiles, even though it is in their nature to do so? Serial killers? Rapists?

Depends. Simply being a pedophile or have inclinations to kill people or rape people isn't a crime by itself. Acting on those feelings are. We don't punish people for what they think about doing, we punish them for what they do. And we do take things like insanity into account - we treat people who are clearly mentally ill differently than those who aren't.

Are you really advocating we just not blame those kinds of crimes because it is simply in their nature to do those things or do you want to retract your illogical statement?

I can't retract a statement I've never made.

We'd be mere puppets then. Might as well not even have conscious thought.

What difference does that make to God? And God CAN'T create human's with free will and not have sin? So he's not omnipotent, then?

 

[Gracchus]

Adam could have chosen not to sin. Then along comes his son and decides to sin. And so on and so on.

And so the penalties for the sins of the father are visited on his descendents.

Do we blame pedophiles, even though it is in their nature to do so? Serial killers? Rapists? Are you really advocating we just not blame those kinds of crimes because it is simply in their nature to do those things or do you want to retract your illogical statement?

We blame because we blame. Shall we blame the sea for the tsunami? Shall we blame the earthquake on the sins of the Earth? We see an agency in the storm and call it the wrath of God. We humans love to place the blame, and take our vengeance, and call it justice. In our cruelty, fear, lust, wrath, lust, and greed we breed further monsters, horrors of our own making, and then we blame the victims of our tortures or demons.

We'd be mere puppets then. Might as well not even have conscious thought.

Just so religious, and patriotic men and women dance on puppet strings, and have not any thought but those enjoined by the puppet masters that are their often secret desires and fears.

Society must be protected from the monsters it engenders, for we monsters can engender naught but monsters; but please, let us be honest enough not to call it justice. In blame and vengeance we project our own image on others. In resisting evil with its own tools, we become evil. (Someone warned us about that, but we knew what to do with such a fool.)

 

[EternalDragon]

But you said he couldn't have. You said it's impossible to have humans with free will and not have sin.

Depends. Simply being a pedophile or have inclinations to kill people or rape people isn't a crime by itself. Acting on those feelings are. We don't punish people for what they think about doing, we punish them for what they do. And we do take things like insanity into account - we treat people who are clearly mentally ill differently than those who aren't.

I can't retract a statement I've never made.

What difference does that make to God? And God CAN'T create human's with free will and not have sin? So he's not omnipotent, then?

Yes, humans can sin and no God isn't going to control your every thought. That has nothing to do with omnipotence.

So you only blame people for the crimes they do. Then why are you not blaming Adam and Eve??

I really don't know how you go through life reasoning like you do.

 

[lasthero]

Yes, humans can sin and no God isn't going to control your every thought. That has nothing to do with omnipotence.

Simple question - can God create humans with free will and not have sin?

If he CAN'T, then he can't do everything. By definition, he is not omnipotent.

So you only blame people for the crimes they do. Then why are you not blaming Adam and Eve??

The difference, of course, being that these people have choices. A pedophile does have a choice on whether to act on his feelings. It is not inevitable that he will do so. You're saying that sinning was an inevitable product of Adam and Eve being the way they were. They were GOING to do it, and God being God, was fully aware of this.

Also, I'd thank you to stop putting words in my mouth. I know it's easier to argue against a strawman, but it's quite rude.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Simple question - can God create humans with free will and not have sin?

If he CAN'T, then he can't do everything. By definition, he is not omnipotent.



The difference, of course, being that these people have choices. A pedophile does have a choice on whether to act on his feelings. It is not inevitable that he will do so. You're saying that sinning was an inevitable product of Adam and Eve being the way they were. They were GOING to do it, and God being God, was fully aware of this.

Also, I'd thank you to stop putting words in my mouth. I know it's easier to argue against a strawman, but it's quite rude.

How would one have free will and not have the ability to do right or wrong?

 

[Split Rock]

Of course Adam would sin. He had free will to do so. It is inevitable with free will and a fallen angel tempting people. It is not possible to create humans with free will and not have sin.

Like I said... bad plan.

God did not send satan to do anything.

Why then did he throw him down to earth and the garden, where he could wreck havoc on mankind for thousands of years???

Of course we blame Adam and Eve. They are the ones who disobeyed one simple rule.

A simple rule which God already knew before hand they would disobey.

Thousands of years is not an issue. That is what is required to collect God's word (bible), spread that gospel around the world and works into God's plan.

Really? Thousands of years to let the "perfect" creation sit in satan's hands???? That's God's plan????

I suppose you are wiser than God and have a better plan? You wouldn't even be able to see what was going to happen. Just because you don't understand it fully doesn't mean it isn't a prefect plan.

Maybe I am just wiser than the writers of GEN? Or more likely, maybe I am just wiser than you. You, who is misinterpreting GEN.

 

[lasthero]

How would one have free will and not have the ability to do right or wrong?

Don't know. Can God do it?

 

[lasthero]

Also, does God have free will?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Don't know. Can God do it?

The issue is not whether God could do it as much as can free will without the ability to do right and wrong exist?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Also, does God have free will?

God has being. He is a being that encompasses attributes that we as created beings do not. I am not sure free will is applicable to God.

 

[justlookinla]

Simple question - can God create humans with free will and not have sin?

If he CAN'T, then he can't do everything. By definition, he is not omnipotent.

Just another modification of the question concerning the ability of God making a rock too big for him to lift.

Oh....by the way. God didn't even make angels without the freedom to sin.

 

[lasthero]

God has being. He is a being that encompasses attributes that we as created beings do not. I am not sure free will is applicable to God.

Why not?

 

[lasthero]

Just another modification of the question concerning the ability of God making a rock too big for him to lift.

Oh....by the way. God didn't even make angels without the freedom to sin.

If God can't do all things, then he's not omnipotent. Ipso facto.