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Is there evidence of something beyond nature?
- Thread starter paul becke
- Start date
PsychoSarah
Chaotic Neutral
-_- in a debate in which subjective conclusions are all you have, there isnt defining evidence for either side. Although, if you try to take up the position of a specific deity, you drastically reduce the statistical chances of you being correct
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Oncedeceived
Senior Veteran
Uh...there are pages of posts that prove her wrong. Debate is happening and the posts prove it.
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PsychoSarah
Chaotic Neutral
How can I, a person who doesn't claim any certainty on whether or not the universe is created, be wrong on an issue I don't take sides in?
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Oncedeceived
Senior Veteran
This is what we have:
1. Physicists claim that the universe appears to be designed.
2. If the universe were designed it would have the appearance of design.
3. The universe has the appearance of design.
4. It is reasonable to conclude that the universe was designed.
5'. IF the universe was designed it is more reasonable under a theistic worldview than an atheistic worldview.
6. The evidence supports the theist's position more cohesively than the atheists.
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PsychoSarah
Chaotic Neutral
1. Not all physicist do, and even so, how something appears by itself isn't evidence for anything other than the fact that to some people it can appear that way.
2. You are going to regret this one, considering not everyone thinks the universe appears designed. Wasn't your whole thing about the fact that essentially, a designed universe didn't have to look designed to everyone or be blatantly obvious?
3. In your subjective opinion, which isn't evidence for anything and you shouldn't expect it to be convincing to other people
4. Not without evidence, since there isn't much evidence in the way of for or against the position, it is logical to just be open about it
5. So far, this is the only one I agree with, although a created universe wouldn't guarantee that creator was a deity, for all intents and purposes to us it might as well be.
6. No, especially when you get into specific religions, there is evidence which contradicts what most religious texts present as how the universe formed and works.
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Oncedeceived
Senior Veteran
It seems those without an agenda and hold to just the facts consider the universe to appear designed.
Those in the know without an agenda do indeed claim the universe has the appearance of design. I have not claimed a designed universe didn't have to look designed.
No, it is not a subjective opinion that the universe appears to be fine tuned.
There is evidence that the universe is fine tuned and gives the appearance of design.
Ok. Agreement is good.
You just said that for all intent and purpose the creator would be a deity. You counter your own admission?
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PsychoSarah
Chaotic Neutral
Again, appearance of design is about as much evidence for design as me eating a bagel is evidence that I've been drafted for war. The two things are essentially unrelated, it doesn't matter how something looks in your or anyone else's subjective opinion. It has 0 bearing on the potential reality.
Perhaps I was mistaken, I might be mixing up our Intelligent design debates in biology with this physics one.
You have even admitted it was subjective to conclude either way about the universe being designed on multiple occasions, should I quote you?
Not any evidence so far that I have seen. Remember, stuff such as the fact life exists doesn't mean the universe was designed for life.
A deity is nonspecific. YHWH is specific, and the more detailed and specific you get with deities, the less likely that particular deity is to exist as long as its existence remains untestable
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If the universe is not designed, it can still have the appearance of design. Since we observe the appearance of design, it is reasonable to conclude that the universe is not designed.
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They also agree that the universe is not designed. Most people will agree that this has the appearance of a face.
http://moonconspiracy.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/mars_face.jpg
It is not reasonable to conclude that the appearance of a face on mars means that it is an actual face.
Those same scientists disagree with you.
As you define it, every universe would be fine tuned.
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Gracchus
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I know I, at least, have.
Appearances can be deceiving, and often are.
And is an incessantly repeated if otherwise unsupported claim.
If the universe was designed then everything in it would be part of the design. Thus, there would be nothing un-designed.
So if you have a theistic worldview, then it is reasonable to suppose a creator god. This may not be circular reasoning, but it is certainly continuously cyclic.
What evidence is there of alternate tuning? Maybe, since it does appear to follow mathematical laws, it has to have the constants that it does.
In other words, you have concluded based on your world-view that your world-view is correct.
Some perhaps do. Some don't. Order can spontaneously arise without design. (e.g. Rivers sort sediments by size without purpose or design.)
Unless it were designed so as not to appear designed. And if it simply formed according to inevitable physical laws it might appear designed.
That is probably because you don't see or pay attention to the chaotic bits.
It is not reasonable to conclude that. It is reasonable to keep an open mind until convincing evidence is found.
You started with a theistic world-view. From this you concluded that a theistic world-view was reasonable.
Assuming your world-view supports your world-view. That is nearly as "cohesive" as a tautology. You are simply saying your opinions support your opinions.
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Oncedeceived
Senior Veteran
No we're not. We are talking about fine tuning of the universe and the scientific data that shows the appearance of design.
The verifiable objective evidence is that the data physicists have gathered show the universe to be fine tuned so precisely that it appears designed.
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Oncedeceived
Senior Veteran
I would agree that the appearance of the face on Mars is not an actual face, I don't think in fact that anyone thought it was an actual face but an artifact of the image of a face. Regardless, you have claimed that the fine tuning of such an element as the face is the same for life. Please elaborate as to what factors or values would be necessary for the face and how that equates to life on earth.
Are you claiming that most scientists do not agree that the universe is fine tuned for life which gives the appearance of design?
I used the definition that the scientists use when making the claim the universe appears fine tuned.
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Smidlee
Veteran
no doubt.
Mars Global Surveyor MOC2-283 Release
Too bad the more we learn about that "face image on Mars" the less it's looks like a face yet the more we learn about the living cell the strong the appearance of design even surpassing human design.
The fine-tuned universe is not enough to create stars, galaxies, our solar system and physical life on it's own. It still needs a living creator. It still needs information , code , arrangement of matter and energy in an intelligent way.
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Oncedeceived
Senior Veteran
Not sure what you mean by this? Being a fellow believer we believe that the fine tuned universe is the aftermath of God's creation. Do we not?
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Gracchus
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"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery .
Cells are far from perfect (e.g. cancer) and very complex. That would be an indication of poor design.
The problems of humanity arise largely because people tend to see only what they want to see.
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EternalDragon
Counselor
"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery .
Cells are far from perfect (e.g. cancer) and very complex. That would be an indication of poor design.
The problems of humanity arise largely because people tend to see only what they want to see.
Are you looking at God's perfect creation or did something happen to damage it? You are looking at a damaged, cursed, sin ravaged creation. Take the blinders off already.
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EternalDragon
Counselor
Oh, right! The creation was so perfectly designed that it could be damaged by a simple act, and conditions that must have been anticipated by the designer.
That was the plan, yes. Sin is very serious. If you read Revelations, it sort of gives away the ending.
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