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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Is there evidence of something beyond nature?
- Thread starter paul becke
- Start date
Oncedeceived
Senior Veteran
That is not my problem because I am not claiming the evidence confirms actual design.
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Oncedeceived
Senior Veteran
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Oncedeceived
Senior Veteran
No, I don't. Do you know the percentage of those who agree or disagree have had their position proven?
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PsychoSarah
Chaotic Neutral
There are various possibilities, proving that the fossils found weren't of once living material would be a start
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bhsmte
Newbie
Proven? When is anything ever proven beyond a doubt in science?
You are again conflating, believing something is true without verifiable evidence to show it is true, with, not believing something is true without verifiable evidence.
Clearly, there is no difference in level of subjectivity in those two to you, but, there is to me.
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Oncedeceived
Senior Veteran
Have you read the thread? Appearance of design is supportive of design. That is my claim. If the universe was designed it would have the appearance of design. It is a reasonable conclusion in the theistic worldview. It has explanatory power in that if the universe appears designed it is supportive of a Designer.
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PsychoSarah
Chaotic Neutral
you just said that you aren't saying the evidence supports design, and then you are claiming that appearance of design supports design. You are claiming that appearance is EVIDENCE FOR DESIGN. Therefore, you are claiming that evidence supports design, just not anything people view as being actual evidence for anything
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Oncedeceived
Senior Veteran
I stand corrected...have either had their beliefs confirmed by evidence?
No, the evidence stands on its own. The conclusions drawn are based on the personal worldview of the person making determinations of that evidence. One set of physicists that believe appearance supports design know the evidence just as the ones that don't believe that the appearance of design think it is actual design. Both believe what they believe due to the same evidence.
That is because your subjective opinion is with those who agree with you, so those who don't are considered by you to have a higher level of subjectivity but there is no such thing. There are conclusions that are based on different levels of evidence but in this case the evidence is the same.
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Oncedeceived
Senior Veteran
You do know don't you that there is evidence that can either support or falsify a certain hypothesis. To support a hypothesis is to say that it is a valid conclusion from the evidence. It does not confirm the hypothesis. There is evidence for the possible existence of design in the universe. It is not evidence for actual design although it can support that conclusion.
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bhsmte
Newbie
Can you tell us about this "set" of physicists who believe appearance supports design, vs the number of physicists who do not agree with ID?
It is my opinion, that a person who does not believe something to be true, without verifiable evidence, is much more objective, than the person who chooses to believe something to be true, without verifiable evidence to show it is true.
Just my take, maybe others on this board disagree with me.
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bhsmte
Newbie
Some evidence can point directly in one direction, other evidence can point in a multitude of directions.
Let's just assume for a moment the universe is designed, even though we have no verifiable evidence this is the case. It is then possible, this design was initiated by intelligent life elsewhere, or possibly any number of Gods, with all sorts of different traits.
You can not produce evidence, to rule out other intelligent creators, besides the God you believe in.
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Oncedeceived
Senior Veteran
The evidence on fine tuning is the same for everyone. It is the conclusion that once subjectively comes to from that evidence rests on the persons worldview.
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Oncedeceived
Senior Veteran
I have not claimed that the appearance of design in the universe if actual design would identify the Designer.
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