Is there evidence of something beyond nature?

[Split Rock]

Thanks for the opinion of yourself but I will side with Moses, the prophets of various biblical writings and Jesus himself who all treated and presented Genesis as I am doing.

The wise person studies God's word.

The wise person is open the possibility they have come to the wrong conclusion about God's word.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Yes, that is why he was born a virgin and is called the second Adam. But unlike Adam, Jesus did not choose to sin. Hence, sinless. But he was sorely tempted of course.


By the way, how do you "try to believe"? Either you do or you don't.

You mean born of a virgin, we are all born virgins dude.

with that sort of outlook on belief, punishing people for not being believers must seem even less justified to you than it does to me. In all honesty, I am not sure how to explain the concept of trying to believe something you, it isn't easy to put that into words

 

[justlookinla]

Omnipotent definition: all powerful, capable of anything

Your statement: god cannot [insert any action, it really doesn't matter, the point is, you stated that god cannot do something]

Therefore, your ideal of god is not omnipotent, because an omnipotent being would, at the very least, be capable of everything a human can do and more!

Depends on one's view of omnipotence.

From Wikipedia.....

The term omnipotent has been used to connote a number of different positions. These positions include, but are not limited to, the following:

A deity is able to do anything that it chooses to do.
A deity is able to do anything that is in accord with its own nature (thus, for instance, if it is a logical consequence of a deity's nature that what it speaks is truth, then it is not able to lie).
Hold that it is part of a deity's nature to be consistent and that it would be inconsistent for said deity to go against its own laws unless there was a reason to do so.
A deity can bring about any state of affairs which is logically possible for anyone to bring about in that situation.
A deity is able to do anything that corresponds with its omniscience and therefore with its worldplan.
Every action performed in the world is 'actually' being performed by the deity, either due to omni-immanence, or because all actions must be 'supported' or 'permitted' by the deity.​

Depends on what you consider godless to mean exactly.

Those who do not know God through Jesus Christ.

There is variation in that matter. But in any case, if there is some antichrist spirit controlling me, an individual who wants to believe and have been actively trying to for years, exactly how would my damnation be justified if I never attain belief before I die?

Your seeking will not be in vain per scripture.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Depends on one's view of omnipotence.

From Wikipedia.....

The term omnipotent has been used to connote a number of different positions. These positions include, but are not limited to, the following:

A deity is able to do anything that it chooses to do.
A deity is able to do anything that is in accord with its own nature (thus, for instance, if it is a logical consequence of a deity's nature that what it speaks is truth, then it is not able to lie).
Hold that it is part of a deity's nature to be consistent and that it would be inconsistent for said deity to go against its own laws unless there was a reason to do so.
A deity can bring about any state of affairs which is logically possible for anyone to bring about in that situation.
A deity is able to do anything that corresponds with its omniscience and therefore with its worldplan.
Every action performed in the world is 'actually' being performed by the deity, either due to omni-immanence, or because all actions must be 'supported' or 'permitted' by the deity.​

Those who do not know God through Jesus Christ.



Your seeking will not be in vain per scripture.

Just because people have used omnipotent in those ways doesn't make that use valid as per what omnipotent actually means. It is far different to say god could lie but chooses not to than to say god literally cannot lie.

Good luck having any measure of that

We shall see, were I to be hit by a car tomorrow and die, never believing, how would that make you feel though?

 

[justlookinla]

Just because people have used omnipotent in those ways doesn't make that use valid as per what omnipotent actually means. It is far different to say god could lie but chooses not to than to say god literally cannot lie.

Good luck having any measure of that

We shall see, were I to be hit by a car tomorrow and die, never believing, how would that make you feel though?

Very very very bad. That would sadden me a great deal. And sadly, there are people do die without God every day.

But, again, if you are seeking, your seeking will not be in vain. That's a promise.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Very very very bad. That would sadden me a great deal. And sadly, there are people do die without God every day.

But, again, if you are seeking, your seeking will not be in vain. That's a promise.

Pretty sure if I died right now that would prove you wrong in that regard, not that you would likely ever become aware I had died. To you, I would just be one of many who simply stopped posting without a word.

I have heard this promise many times before good sir, it does not bring me any comfort, given my continual lack of belief. Ha, someone insulted me a little while ago, stating that I should pray to god for belief, and if nothing happens in 3 days, she would become an atheist and I should give up trying. When I stated how long I had actually been doing that, she dared to call me a liar, as I am sure she would have if I had done as she said and still lacked belief, which I did, as I always do. 6 years is a long time to be praying for belief and not getting an answer, I can tell you that. Not to mention the childish prayers I made as a little kid for silly things, like having a lost toy returned to me. And no, I didn't believe in god when I was that young either, it was more of a "worth a shot" sort of situation then. I suppose that sentiment hasn't really changed though, although what I am asking for now is far different.

 

[justlookinla]

Pretty sure if I died right now that would prove you wrong in that regard, not that you would likely ever become aware I had died. To you, I would just be one of many who simply stopped posting without a word.

I have heard this promise many times before good sir, it does not bring me any comfort, given my continual lack of belief. Ha, someone insulted me a little while ago, stating that I should pray to god for belief, and if nothing happens in 3 days, she would become an atheist and I should give up trying. When I stated how long I had actually been doing that, she dared to call me a liar, as I am sure she would have if I had done as she said and still lacked belief, which I did, as I always do. 6 years is a long time to be praying for belief and not getting an answer, I can tell you that. Not to mention the childish prayers I made as a little kid for silly things, like having a lost toy returned to me. And no, I didn't believe in god when I was that young either, it was more of a "worth a shot" sort of situation then. I suppose that sentiment hasn't really changed though, although what I am asking for now is far different.

We all have a process which is unique to us but has the same ending....God revealing Himself to us through Jesus Christ. Doubts and fears, uncertainty, unbelief and unanswered questions are part of the journey, at least it was for me, but ultimately the encounter will come. It may be three days, three years or thirty years, but the promise is that those who seek shall find, and to those who knock, it shall be opened.

So, you do have a promise from the God you're seeking. Again, you can count on it.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Pretty sure if I died right now that would prove you wrong in that regard, not that you would likely ever become aware I had died. To you, I would just be one of many who simply stopped posting without a word.

I have heard this promise many times before good sir, it does not bring me any comfort, given my continual lack of belief. Ha, someone insulted me a little while ago, stating that I should pray to god for belief, and if nothing happens in 3 days, she would become an atheist and I should give up trying. When I stated how long I had actually been doing that, she dared to call me a liar, as I am sure she would have if I had done as she said and still lacked belief, which I did, as I always do. 6 years is a long time to be praying for belief and not getting an answer, I can tell you that. Not to mention the childish prayers I made as a little kid for silly things, like having a lost toy returned to me. And no, I didn't believe in god when I was that young either, it was more of a "worth a shot" sort of situation then. I suppose that sentiment hasn't really changed though, although what I am asking for now is far different.

The problem with anyone setting a time limit for God work in is that they think that they have some control over God. God works in His own time and in His own way. We can pray for someone but ultimately it is God who sees what we can't and knows what we don't.

 

[PsychoSarah]

The problem with anyone setting a time limit for God work in is that they think that they have some control over God. God works in His own time and in His own way. We can pray for someone but ultimately it is God who sees what we can't and knows what we don't.

I guess god decided to move at the speed of a tortoise with me then, if you want to look at it that way. I couldn't say why, far as I can tell, nothing about my life or the lives of those around me would worsen should I believe in god tomorrow.

 

[Oncedeceived]

I guess god decided to move at the speed of a tortoise with me then, if you want to look at it that way. I couldn't say why, far as I can tell, nothing about my life or the lives of those around me would worsen should I believe in god tomorrow.

You've said it yourself, you can't believe in the one God that it matters to. You don't believe that the Christian God is possible. So you are not open to Him at all. He is the only one you can come to.

 

[PsychoSarah]

You've said it yourself, you can't believe in the one God that it matters to. You don't believe that the Christian God is possible. So you are not open to Him at all. He is the only one you can come to.

-_- I have never said that, I might state that certain ideals people attach to the aforementioned deity are not possible, but as far as the general idea goes, sure, why not? Do I view it unlikely that any religion be right on the money? Oh yes, the statistical chance of that is slim indeed. Do I view it as impossible? No. Do I view the bible as a product of a deity that actually exists? No. Could I be wrong? Sure.

 

[Oncedeceived]

-_- I have never said that, I might state that certain ideals people attach to the aforementioned deity are not possible, but as far as the general idea goes, sure, why not? Do I view it unlikely that any religion be right on the money? Oh yes, the statistical chance of that is slim indeed. Do I view it as impossible? No. Do I view the bible as a product of a deity that actually exists? No. Could I be wrong? Sure.

So like I said, the only God that you can find is the one you don't want to exist or accept.

 

[PsychoSarah]

So like I said, the only God that you can find is the one you don't want to exist or accept.

I am not understanding the logic behind that conclusion, I don't recall ever stating your personal ideal of god was impossible, am I missing something here?

 

[EternalDragon]

You mean born of a virgin, we are all born virgins dude.

with that sort of outlook on belief, punishing people for not being believers must seem even less justified to you than it does to me. In all honesty, I am not sure how to explain the concept of trying to believe something you, it isn't easy to put that into words

Yes, born of a virgin.

You are not punished for not being a believer. You are held accountable for your sins. Which Jesus can wipe away.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Yes, born of a virgin.

You are not punished for not being a believer. You are held accountable for your sins. Which Jesus can wipe away.

-_- and as per the Christian faith, we are all BORN WITH SIN, which isn't a result of our own personal actions. So it is literally believe or burn

 

[EternalDragon]

-_- and as per the Christian faith, we are all BORN WITH SIN, which isn't a result of our own personal actions. So it is literally believe or burn

We are all born with the sin nature, yes.

It is literally ask and you will be forgiven. It is literally God cares so much for you that he allows you an easy way to be forgiven. I know you think he could just give that to everyone but he wants you to come to him of your own free will. It is to be your choice to come to God for the free gift. That seems about the fairest way to do it in my opinion.

 

[PsychoSarah]

We are all born with the sin nature, yes.

It is literally ask and you will be forgiven. It is literally God cares so much for you that he allows you an easy way to be forgiven. I know you think he could just give that to everyone but he wants you to come to him of your own free will. It is to be your choice to come to God for the free gift. That seems about the fairest way to do it in my opinion.

Belief and asking for forgiveness are not equivalent. Even you have stated you don't really view belief as a choice, but obviously one doesn't have to believe in something to ask forgiveness by it, even though from the perspective of the person doing it it is somewhat pointless.

 

[Gracchus]

The question under discussion is: "Is there evidence of something beyond nature?"

I believe there are other sub-forums for preaching and proselytizing.

If the only response that Christians can make to the question is ridiculously unsupported and impertinent statement of dogma, I think we can deduce that the answer to the question is "no"!

 

[Smidlee]

The question under discussion is: "Is there evidence of something beyond nature?"

I believe there are other sub-forums for preaching and proselytizing.

If the only response that Christians can make to the question is ridiculously unsupported and impertinent statement of dogma, I think we can deduce that the answer to the question is "no"!

If we saw a Stargate or spaceship buried on Mars would we say those objects are natural?
The fact you are posting in this thread debating is evidence of something beyond nature. Naturalist has to believe computers ,cars, building, etc. are just the results of natural laws.

 

[justlookinla]

The question under discussion is: "Is there evidence of something beyond nature?"

I believe there are other sub-forums for preaching and proselytizing.

If the only response that Christians can make to the question is ridiculously unsupported and impertinent statement of dogma, I think we can deduce that the answer to the question is "no"!

Would this then mean that the creation of the universe wasn't a supernatural event? If so, what was the source for the natural laws which created the universe and how did they create?