Is there anything wrong with being a Mormon Christian?

Soulgazer · May 20, 2011

CryptoLutheran said:
Yes, the Bible was compiled by catholic (not Roman Catholic) Christians through hundreds of years of consensus. It's a collection of texts for the Church, that's what it is.

Since Protestants and Orthodox are also, effectively, little 'c' catholic (to varying levels) that we have received the historic Canon (more or less) is hardly surprising.

Let's just make sure we don't pretend there was any sort clandestine act in any of this, the Bible is the result of centuries of accumulated tradition and the basic agreement of Christian faithful up and through till the present time.

-CryptoLutheran

No clandestine act is implied. It's just a matter of historical fact. If Constantine and successors had made Marcionite Christianity the law of the land instead of catholic Christianity, we would be using a substantially shorter bible. If they had chosen the Montanist, we would not be using a bible at all. Protestant's often forget that they are protestant Catholics----which historically means that they "protest" the time when the RCC was making money by charging for absolutions among other things. The Protestant bible is the same bible (with the Wisdom literature-of all things) removed. Catholicism, with a little "c", started as a very tiny little sect in the mid second century, and the name "catholic" simply means "universal" as the movement sought to unite all of the disparate teachings under one universal banner; the Bible includes scriptures from nearly every one of these disparate sects. Myself, I am not catholic, even by that definition, but try to stick to one specific set of teachings. Even so, I would never treat Mormans as anything less than Christians. Historically, they are little different than the Montanist or the Apocalyptics, and the Baptist like to say they are derived from the Montanist(who refused to use scripture, and you had to be a prophet to belong) and there are many many arguments about one of the Apocalyptic sect's many scriptures happening every other day, right here in River City. And it was many hundreds of years----the cannon was closed in the sixth century, and the general practice of using apocryphal texts was ended after the council of Trent in 1540. This had more to do with the invention of the printing press than anything else; the church(s) involved in the council thought that the apocryphal text could be too easily misinterpreted by the untrained if they remained available to the masses.

Evergreen48 · May 20, 2011

AeonJ said:
I ask this because it seems like many people don't like this sect of Christianity.

Yet if I were any other sect or denomination I'd still be different. They are too numerous to count, all differing from another.

So what's the difference in being different?

To me, Mormonism is only one facet of the great big cubic zirconia of organized religion. I have found that it is best to look at each person as an individual in any denomination rather than the denomination as a whole. I know some very fine Mormons who truly love their neighbors as themselves and do unto others as they would have others do unto them. What else is more important than these two things aside from loving the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul. And I fear we all fall short on that one.

RufustheRed · May 20, 2011

AeonJ said:
I ask this because it seems like many people don't like this sect of Christianity.

Yet if I were any other sect or denomination I'd still be different. They are too numerous to count, all differing from another.

So what's the difference in being different?

For Aeon: Is there anything wrong with being a non-Mormon Christian?

I mean it is to the point that there are now myriad LDS missionaries knocking on my door (and the doors of many, many non-Mormon Christians) with the message that my religion is flawed and just not good enough for God. I believe that turn about is fair play, don't you? Would you welcome me into your house to discuss how your church is in error?

Rufus

BarryK · May 21, 2011

Phoebe Ann said:
If the Catholics had changed the Bible to suit themselves, we'd have a very different Bible than the one we have today!

indeed, for example, thiswould not be included in the canon:

1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV)
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

this bit of scripture totally nullifies any reason to ask Mary to "pray for us sinners", if the Church of Rome had actually manipulated cannon to suit thier needs, why ws this not erradicated?

BTW: the cannon was codified at the councle of Nicea, which was invoked by Constantine, ( who moved the capo0tol to Constanople, not Rome.) the canon ws established by what later became known as the eastern orthodox church, not the roman catholoc)

BarryK · May 21, 2011

alfonsobonetti said:
Originally Posted by Soulgazer

The bible is an anthology of Christian scriptures compiled by catholics to promote catholicism. If you are Catholic, your argument is valid. If not, what the heck are you doing parroting the catholic stance?

I have a different set of scripture that warns not to listen to ANY prophet who claims to have messages from angels. That does not keep me from respecting Mormans.

Oh so well said......

They don't realize the hypocracy of most of their judgments against us.
They hold fast to the Catholic/Protestant Bibles just like a form of idoloartry, when they don't even believe in the "authority" of Catholics or other Protestants, i.e. namely Lutherans who created the Protestant Bible.

Just because we have "more" that somehow makes us "bad"?
Of course, I know they add all kinds of other "intellectual" (leaning on the flesh of men) arguments against the LDS Church, but their entire foundation is just as flimsy (more in our view) as they think our foundations are.

It's just like their condeming our Prophets/Apostles..... What about their Preachers and Religions? They may not claim themselves to be "Prophets or Apostles", but they certainly act like them, dictating doctrine, standing as watchmen, creating religions, on and on. I mean, at least we have a foundation of Prophets and Apostles like the Bible teaches, their foundations are MEN. By the way just like the Bible warns, "Prophets" who mingle the doctrines of men with the doctrines of God. You don't have to be called a prophet to act exactly like one. These people lead MILLIONS of followers toward one way or another, and low critics want to critisize US??? Makes me laugh all the time. They should get their own houses in order before they even have a claim/stand to be critical of us.

Oh, so well said indeed, i fully agree wit you obi, that this is indded

"oh so well said"[/quote]
i fully agree with your agreement with Soulgazer that WE

have a different set of scripture that warns not to listen to ANY prophet who claims to have messages from angels

Click to expand...

oh so well said!!!!!

Byrd4God · May 22, 2011

RufustheRed said:
For Aeon: Is there anything wrong with being a non-Mormon Christian?

I mean it is to the point that there are now myriad LDS missionaries knocking on my door (and the doors of many, many non-Mormon Christians) with the message that my religion is flawed and just not good enough for God. I believe that turn about is fair play, don't you? Would you welcome me into your house to discuss how your church is in error?

Rufus

Good point. I don't think they would like it if non-Mormons were knocking on doors of the Mormons telling them why they are wrong.

Soulgazer · May 22, 2011

Byrd4God said:
Good point. I don't think they would like it if non-Mormons were knocking on doors of the Mormons telling them why they are wrong.

I can't speak to that. Christian Gnostics don't proselytize as a general rule, unless asked. However, I have had Jehovah's Witnesses knock on my door, and I invited them back into my rectory. Even though they Believe Jehovah is God, and we believe Jehovah is a false rendition of God, we still had a good time. Christian discussions do not, and in fact, should not, be confrontations.

alfonsobonetti · May 22, 2011

Byrd4God said:
Good point. I don't think they would like it if non-Mormons were knocking on doors of the Mormons telling them why they are wrong.

1. Sounds like you don't know what you are talking about.
We don't go around telling people why they are "wrong", we go around sharing the FULLNESS of the Gospel of Christ, bringing them to the Lords literal Kingdom Restored to the earth. You guys do however go around telling people why they are wrong with their religious beliefs, like on this forum or in this thread.

We have a saying.... "Bring what you have and let us add unto it".
This is not telling people they are wrong, it's simply spreading the Gospel of Christ, completely different emphasis. One is of destruction, the other is of Hope and Growth.

2. We have no problem with ANYONE sharing their beliefs with us, door to door or otherwise. Unlike you all we aren't afraid of seeking truth from where-ever it may come.

Please stop bearing false witness.

Rescued One · May 22, 2011

alfonsobonetti said:
...
We don't go around telling people why they are "wrong", we go around sharing the FULLNESS of the Gospel of Christ, bringing them to the Lords literal Kingdom Restored to the earth. You guys do however go around telling people why they are wrong with their religious beliefs, like on this forum or in this thread.

The missionaries told me, three members of my immediate family, and my fiance to read the First Vision as contained in Joseph Smith History 1:

Joseph SmithâHistory 1Â

They explained that all churches are wrong except the CoJCoLDS.

Legal_Eagle · May 22, 2011

To Soulgazer, I have to believe that God has worked through the Holy Spirit to preserve the Bible and its message, and not allow it to be used as a recruiting tool of any particular religion at a given time. The Book of Mormon was devised by a person with divine guidance through the use of magical spectacles, and is a work unsubstantiated by any historical or scriptural evidence. The origins of the religion, with revelations (such as the star Kolob), that are more likened to heretical texts of the Dark Ages, are not God's word. but that of Joseph Smith. I seriously doubt that the Bible had to be rewritten do to poor grammar, as it was in the case of the Book of Mormon. It also personally bothers me that any other religion would ask me to renounce my own baptism as a precursor to joining their religion, and to accept the premise that good works trump faith in the eyes of God. No matter how good the intention of their believers, they seem to me to be "wolves in sheep's clothing", rather than Christians spreading their own take on the Gospels. That's just my take on them.

Soulgazer · May 22, 2011

JasonDeVaux said:
To Soulgazer, I have to believe that God has worked through the Holy Spirit to preserve the Bible and its message, and not allow it to be used as a recruiting tool of any particular religion at a given time. The Book of Mormon was devised by a person with divine guidance through the use of magical spectacles, and is a work unsubstantiated by any historical or scriptural evidence. The origins of the religion, with revelations (such as the star Kolob), that are more likened to heretical texts of the Dark Ages, are not God's word. but that of Joseph Smith. I seriously doubt that the Bible had to be rewritten do to poor grammar, as it was in the case of the Book of Mormon. It also personally bothers me that any other religion would ask me to renounce my own baptism as a precursor to joining their religion, and to accept the premise that good works trump faith in the eyes of God. No matter how good the intention of their believers, they seem to me to be "wolves in sheep's clothing", rather than Christians spreading their own take on the Gospels. That's just my take on them.

I do know that everyone is allowed a personal opinion, and opinions will always vary with different experiences. Myself, I am secure enough in my faith that no matter what is said about it, or about me practicing it, it does not bother me in the least, no matter if I am attacked by a Morman, a Muslim or a Baptist; and being an unapologetic Gnostic Christian, I seem to be in everyones crosshairs.

Whenever there is a religious argument, I fall back mentally on a verse from James: " [SIZE=-1]1:27[/SIZE]Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. " So it has never bothered me in the least if one takes a faith view, or a works view, or argue over if Jesus is God or or just a prophet. If people are keeping pure and undefiled religion, God surely knows.

Soulgazer · May 22, 2011

BarryK said:
indeed, for example, thiswould not be included in the canon:

1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV)
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

this bit of scripture totally nullifies any reason to ask Mary to "pray for us sinners", if the Church of Rome had actually manipulated cannon to suit thier needs, why ws this not erradicated?

BTW: the cannon was codified at the councle of Nicea, which was invoked by Constantine, ( who moved the capo0tol to Constanople, not Rome.) the canon ws established by what later became known as the eastern orthodox church, not the roman catholoc)

No, the Pastorals are very catholic. They were written to counter the Marcionites, that had two practices that the catholic sect did not like; They allowed women preachers, and they were solo scriptura. The catholics accepted the poets such as Homer(http://www.constantinethegreatcoins.com/Constantine/Saints.html chapter X) as scripture; hence that famous line that "all scripture is God breathed". The Marcionites disagreed, and would only use the letters of Paul. The catholic sect thought that by placing Pauls name on them the Marcionites would accept them, but they already had a closed canon ( http://www.marcionite-scripture.info/ ) and quickly identified the Pastorals as forgeries. The RCC practice of Mary interceding was much later....we are talking about the year 120-150, and the RCC started around 340, codified in the seventh century. The Canon was codified as an "open" canon, meaning that it was the central scriptural authority, however the Canon was not declared the exclusive authority until the council of Trent in 1540.

Leat · May 23, 2011

Who is John Smith? And what 500 pages did he translate? Do you have the book he translated?

The best way I see it is like the South Park episode, where John Smith made it all up. I can understand if the text he translated were available to many people to be translated by other scholars, but this isn't the case. If we as Christians didn't have the original Hebrew text still available today, then it would be easily understandable that our text is false.

"Though Smith at first taught that God The Father was a spirit, he eventually viewed God as an advanced and glorified man, embodied within time and space with a throne situated near a star or planet named Kolob, and measuring time at the rate of a thousand years per Kolob day.

Does this not sound a bit psycho to you? Where does it even mention that in The Holy Bible? Remember, The Book of Mormon came waaaay after The Bible, my friend. As well, it was produced in America, far from The Holy Land.

I could go on...but these are my personal opinions. Does The Book of Mormon Scripture teach Salvation through Jesus Christ? That no one goes to The Father but through Him?

RadicalDissenter · May 23, 2011

AeonJ said:
I ask this because it seems like many people don't like this sect of Christianity.

Yet if I were any other sect or denomination I'd still be different. They are too numerous to count, all differing from another.

So what's the difference in being different?

Being a member of a larger and more popular religious groups is not better than being a member of a religious minority.

But, is it really good to belong to ANY sect or denomination at all ? I think it isn't. There is no essential difference in being a part of a "different" denomination. They are all wrong, though their errors may vary. They may contradict each other on some points, but the claim of divine validity of doctrines and practices makes them essentially the same: pretenders. No group of people can have the Truth as their possession.

thesunisout · May 23, 2011

Yes, there is something wrong with being a mormon. It's called heresay.
This is what you believe:

The god of the Mormons is not the God of the Bible. To the Mormons, Jesus is the firstborn son of an exalted "man" who became the god of this world. The man-god of Mormonism was made the god of this world because of his good works on another planet somewhere out in the universe. He "earned" godhood, and was thus appointed by a counsel of gods in the heavens to his high position as the god of planet Earth. The Mormon god of this world was a man, like all men, who became a god. This is what the celestial marriage and the temple vows are all about. LDS men, by doing their temple work, are striving for exaltation by which they, too, shall one day become gods. Their wives will be the mother goddesses of "their" world and with their husband will produce the population of their world. This is the Mormon doctrine of "eternal progression."

This is what the bible says:

God is eternal and the One true God. He was never a man, or lived on a planet. He created the Heavens and the Earth. There are no other Gods. Nothing was made that was not made through Him.

Your religion is based on works, but we are only saved by grace. You cannot earn your way to Heaven.

Mormonism is the same as Islam, and the Jehovahs Witnesses. In each case a false prophet (joseph smith in your example) invented new scriptures and started his own religion. It is the doctrine of devils.

AeonJ said:
I ask this because it seems like many people don't like this sect of Christianity.

Yet if I were any other sect or denomination I'd still be different. They are too numerous to count, all differing from another.

So what's the difference in being different?

Soulgazer · May 23, 2011

thesunisout said:
Yes, there is something wrong with being a mormon. It's called heresay.
This is what you believe:

The god of the Mormons is not the God of the Bible. To the Mormons, Jesus is the firstborn son of an exalted "man" who became the god of this world. The man-god of Mormonism was made the god of this world because of his good works on another planet somewhere out in the universe. He "earned" godhood, and was thus appointed by a counsel of gods in the heavens to his high position as the god of planet Earth. The Mormon god of this world was a man, like all men, who became a god. This is what the celestial marriage and the temple vows are all about. LDS men, by doing their temple work, are striving for exaltation by which they, too, shall one day become gods. Their wives will be the mother goddesses of "their" world and with their husband will produce the population of their world. This is the Mormon doctrine of "eternal progression."

This is what the bible says:

God is eternal and the One true God. He was never a man, or lived on a planet. He created the Heavens and the Earth. There are no other Gods. Nothing was made that was not made through Him.

Your religion is based on works, but we are only saved by grace. You cannot earn your way to Heaven.

Mormonism is the same as Islam, and the Jehovahs Witnesses. In each case a false prophet (joseph smith in your example) invented new scriptures and started his own religion. It is the doctrine of devils.

And you are going on faith that all of the bible is correct. The operative word here is faith. Some people believe that Genesis, which was a Jewish folk fable, full of ribald puns and sexy jokes, if you speak Hebrew, is the actual creation story. They get real insulted if a Hebrew speaking Jew straightens them out. They believe that because they are "Christian", they know more about Judaism than a Jew. Jehovah's witnesses fall into that category. Muslims get real insulted if you don't believe that Mohamed sat in a cave with the Angel Gabriel. Again, it comes down to faith. If God could turn rocks into "sons of Abraham", then belief is the least of our worries. What matters is what we do with that belief. You will know a tree by it's fruit. A good tree cannot produce evil fruit, and an evil tree cannot produce Good fruit. Good fruit is peace, love, Joy, helpfulness and support. Evil fruit is war, hate, division, indifference and unhelpful criticism. It's not hard to spot an evil tree. Sometimes it's a little harder to spot a good one.
I agree that there are false prophets. Paul implied that Moses was one when he said that the law was given to Moses through the dispensation of Angels, which was a genuine slap in the face, and Paul, being a trained Jew, knew it was a slap in the face, to both Moses and Judaism. Yet the average modern Christian would fight that idea tooth and nail, clinging to their childhood training, and come up with an alternate explanation rather than accept the plain truth. Watch as the apologetics pile up left and right as people try to rationalize away Paul's statement, unwilling to accept even a simple little thing that interferes with what they have been taught to believe.
Now, Most mormans have been born into their belief. How can they accept any criticism as anything less than an insult? And do you really want to be the one to be doing the insulting?

thesunisout · May 23, 2011

Jesus didn't believe Genesis was a fairy tale. Not only did Jesus say scripture is historical fact, He confirmed that scripture is the inerrant word of God. He confirmed everything from Adam and Eve to the flood to Isaiah and so on.

My faith in Jesus Christ is all I need to know that every word of the bible is true. You, being a gnostic, don't seem to have that same faith. I wonder why not?

As far as mormons go, I respect them and think they're wonderful people, but I am not going to pretend what they believe is not heresay. Nor will I sugarcoat the seriousness of the matter.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2004/0406scripture.asp

John 5:39

You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me <-- IE the inerrant word of God!

Soulgazer said:
And you are going on faith that all of the bible is correct. The operative word here is faith. Some people believe that Genesis, which was a Jewish folk fable, full of ribald puns and sexy jokes, if you speak Hebrew, is the actual creation story. They get real insulted if a Hebrew speaking Jew straightens them out. They believe that because they are "Christian", they know more about Judaism than a Jew. Jehovah's witnesses fall into that category. Muslims get real insulted if you don't believe that Mohamed sat in a cave with the Angel Gabriel. Again, it comes down to faith. If God could turn rocks into "sons of Abraham", then belief is the least of our worries. What matters is what we do with that belief. You will know a tree by it's fruit. A good tree cannot produce evil fruit, and an evil tree cannot produce Good fruit. Good fruit is peace, love, Joy, helpfulness and support. Evil fruit is war, hate, division, indifference and unhelpful criticism. It's not hard to spot an evil tree. Sometimes it's a little harder to spot a good one.
I agree that there are false prophets. Paul implied that Moses was one when he said that the law was given to Moses through the dispensation of Angels, which was a genuine slap in the face, and Paul, being a trained Jew, knew it was a slap in the face, to both Moses and Judaism. Yet the average modern Christian would fight that idea tooth and nail, clinging to their childhood training, and come up with an alternate explanation rather than accept the plain truth. Watch as the apologetics pile up left and right as people try to rationalize away Paul's statement, unwilling to accept even a simple little thing that interferes with what they have been taught to believe.
Now, Most mormans have been born into their belief. How can they accept any criticism as anything less than an insult? And do you really want to be the one to be doing the insulting?

abysmul · May 23, 2011

Most non Mormons that I know start getting hung up on things like the "magic underwear", Kolob, the mess of plural marriage in the early history of the Mormons, secret temple rights, early church history of racism, and so forth and so on.

TasteForTruth · May 23, 2011

Leat said:
Does The Book of Mormon Scripture teach Salvation through Jesus Christ? That no one goes to The Father but through Him?

Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth. Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered. Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise. Wherefore, he is the firstfruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved. (2 Ne. 2:6-9)

And moreover, I say unto you, that there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent. (Mosiah 3:17)

The Book of Mormon in no uncertain terms teaches salvation through Jesus Christ.

Some in this sub-forum will try to spin this and turn it on its head using any number of machinations, but they rail against an immovable stone. The Book of Mormon declares to the world that salvation can only be found in and through Jesus Christ.

Thanks for asking.

RufustheRed · May 23, 2011

abysmul said:
Most non Mormons that I know start getting hung up on things like the "magic underwear", Kolob, the mess of plural marriage in the early history of the Mormons, secret temple rights, early church history of racism, and so forth and so on.

What's your point?

Rufus

Is there anything wrong with being a Mormon Christian?

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