Is There Any Scriptural Backing For Calling Someone An Intercessor?

[ARBITER01]

Obviously Arbiter we cannot look up ministry gift in the Bible as the phrase is not there. And defining something in terms of one thing it is not is not a helpful description. If you asked "elaborate on what an apple is" and all I said was "not an orange" then it wouldn't be a useful description would it!

I am trying to appreciate and understand your point of view and hopefully learn something.

I would use the word office to describe the Ephesians 4.11 gifts, and that terminology is useful to me and the people I communicate with. I like your phrase ministry gift because it emphasises the nature of gift, and the importance of ministry. However, I am not convinced that we are meaning the same thing.

I have not heard the word "ministry gift" before. This is not a value judgment, just a fact. Could you please explain a little more for my ignorant ears?

What makes something a MINISTRY GIFT?

What is in your list of ministry gifts? Why are you telling me that intercession is a ministry gift not a spiritual gift? Do you mean the 1 Cor. 12 gifts by your phrase spiritual gifts or something different?

Thanks for the clarification. If we understand what we mean when we use these phrases it opens the door to intelligent and hopefully edifying discourse.

To me, ministry provides edification from The Holy Spirit. When someone is trying to operate in an area that they were not placed in by The Holy Spirit, there will be no edification to our spirit from The Holy Spirit through them.

For instance, just because I speak in tongues doesn't mean I have a ministry in that to speak before an assembly with that gift. The Holy Spirit does not operate that gift in me before the people, but there are people gifted to do that. To me, that is their ministry from GOD.

There is no real inclusive ministry gift lift. Paul lists the immediate positional type ministry gifts in Corinthians and Ephesians and I think Romans, but are we to say that GOD does not grant ministry to people operating in praise and worship for instance?

 

[MadameGuyon]

Madame Guyon - and she can correct me if I am wrong - believes that God calls some people intercessors and that it is an office in the church such as pastor and evangelist.

Ben

I never said or implied that intercessor is an 'office' in the church such as pastor, evangelist, teacher, apostle, or prophet.

It is a ministry gift just like worship leader can be a calling (asignment) on a persons life.

 

[KingZzub]

@ Arbiter,

My own personal opinion is that you are right in that there are areas in which certain people are more encouraging when they minister in, and I think public ministration of tongues is a great example of this.

I have given a public message in tongues about 3 times in my life. I just don't move down that line. Other people do - and I think that realizing that there is a public ministry of tongues removes the confusion of Paul's seeming ambiguity in wishing that all spoke in tongues (in private prayer) and stating that not all speak in tongues (in public ministry).

However, all of the ministries listing in 1 Cor. 12 and Ephesians 4.11 have one thing in common: they are public ministries. When we meet as a church we all have different roles to pray. There is not any Biblical indication that we have different roles in private: in private we are to fellowship with the Lord. That is what prayer is.

I really appreciate your clarification on this. In terms of worship leaders, I personally put worship leaders in the ministry of helps as they help the offices operate in their office and they help the saints commune with God.

Where I disagree with you is that the list is open ended and that we can just invent ministries. I know a guy who believes his ministry is topless dance for example, and another who believes that his ministry is to go to a certain ministers meetings and make notes and then publish on the web where this minister is missing it. Nonsense with a capital Non. I am sure you would not think these are legitimate ministries, but if you step outside the Biblical guidelines you invariably end up in cuckoo land.

I have been reading an article by a so-called intercessor this week on how she meets Jesus in the bridal chamber and, well, you can imagine the rest as I can't bring myself to mention it. That is not just delusion, it is probably demonic.

All this brings me back to our original question: do you think intercession is a gift or not?

 

[KingZzub]

I never said or implied that intercessor is an 'office' in the church such as pastor, evangelist, teacher, apostle, or prophet.

It is a ministry gift just like worship leader can be a calling (asignment) on a persons life.

No problems, like I said you were totally free to correct me on what your opinions are.

Blessings,
Ben

 

[MadameGuyon]

I never said or implied that intercessor is an 'office' in the church such as pastor, evangelist, teacher, apostle, or prophet.

It is a ministry gift just like worship leader can be a calling (asignment) on a persons life.

I repost this, since KingZzub and I must have posted at the same time and I want this clarified.

 

[KingZzub]

I think it is clear.

So where does your "gift" of intercessor fit in then? Because it seems to me that you are arguing that there are people called intercessors the same as people called pastors? Is that not your point?

Thanks,
Ben

 

[ARBITER01]

However, all of the ministries listing in 1 Cor. 12 and Ephesians 4.11 have one thing in common: they are public ministries. When we meet as a church we all have different roles to pray. There is not any Biblical indication that we have different roles in private: in private we are to fellowship with the Lord. That is what prayer is.

That's not entirely correct though. I do agree that ministry positions are for the body of Christ, but GOD operates in HIS mercy also, not just in grace, so HE reaches out to unbelievers in that capacity just as well.

Prayer is not entirely private as you are making it to be here. I'm constantly used by GOD during prayer meetings. I and others provide intersession when we prayer together for the needs of the church. I pray predominantly in The Spirit, and all the promptings during it are from Him continually, just like when GOD operates prophecy through me during services. It is a ministry in action.

All this brings me back to our original question: do you think intercession is a gift or not?

I haven't changed my answer on that, it can be a ministry gift but all of us as priests will be used to provide intersession to some degree in our Christian walk.

 

[KingZzub]

I am aware prayer is a private matter and there are times of corporate prayer, and that often the anointing in both of these is different, just like there is tongues and diversities of tongues.

However, Guyon is talking about people who are "intercessors" who are praying on their own for hours, not people who are involved in corporate prayer. Now I am not against prayer, I am not against long seasons of prayer. I am opposed to four things, and I have yet to be convinced Scripturally otherwise:

1. The title intercessor in the NT is reserved for Jesus. I am happy for people to say they are making intercession for someone if by intercession they simply mean that they are praying for someone. However many people mean something more sinister: I have just read a handbook on prayer that someone bought me which says "Intercession is in our prayers pulling man and God together". If I used the appropriate words for what I think of that sentence in the light of the work of Jesus I would be banned from here! Man and God are together, we have the ministry of reconciliation!
2. There is no Biblical context for the idea of a gift of intercession - though I do agree with you Arbiter that there are times of special prayer that the Lord gifts people with.
3. Many of the practices surrounding what is called "intercession" in contemporary charismatic churches are not Biblical and not edifying and result from an ignorance of the redemptive work of Christ. Examples are "standing in the gap", "spiritual warfare" and "pulling down strongholds". There is no Biblical example or teaching that these should be part of prayer.
4. "Intercession" often takes people off focus from Christ and His completed work. If you are in a meeting and people spend two hours yelling at the devil, there is a problem.

This is the context of our debate: that is why I am emphasising private prayer, not due to my making prayer out to be something it is not.

Being very honest, I am not a big fan of prayer meetings. Some of the people in the church are quite keen for one and we are going to start having one monthly next year. I like my prayer life being personal. I know that is an area I need to develop in - not least of which because people need their pastor to be a role model in the area of prayer. I enjoy corporate prayer and three of our last five Sunday services have been pretty much prayer meetings for the nations of the world.

However, like you I agree that everyone should be praying.

Moving aside from the "gift" aspect, do you think that it is appropriate given the fact that Jesus Christ has been the perfect propitiation for the sins of the world to say that people are "standing in the gap" or engaging in spiritual warfare? If so, what Scriptural basis do you have for this.

Blessings,
Ben

 

[toolite]

I can only speak by experience... Before I started to intercede I was taught to do other things like understand my dreams. I was asked to intercede for a certain group before instructed to intercede for my church... I think as anything of the Spirit - God will reveal it. Now you must ask God to strengthen it but, He will reveal it when it's right. Sometimes you think you are just curious but, that's God getting ready to show you. Stay Blessed!

All The Glory Belongs To God Forever!

 

[KingZzub]

You were taught to understand your dreams?

Sounds like we need a new thread beginning with the phrase "Is There Any Scriptural Backing For..."

 

[ARBITER01]

I am aware prayer is a private matter and there are times of corporate prayer, and that often the anointing in both of these is different, just like there is tongues and diversities of tongues.

However, Guyon is talking about people who are "intercessors" who are praying on their own for hours, not people who are involved in corporate prayer. Now I am not against prayer, I am not against long seasons of prayer. I am opposed to four things, and I have yet to be convinced Scripturally otherwise:

1. The title intercessor in the NT is reserved for Jesus. I am happy for people to say they are making intercession for someone if by intercession they simply mean that they are praying for someone. However many people mean something more sinister: I have just read a handbook on prayer that someone bought me which says "Intercession is in our prayers pulling man and God together". If I used the appropriate words for what I think of that sentence in the light of the work of Jesus I would be banned from here! Man and God are together, we have the ministry of reconciliation!
2. There is no Biblical context for the idea of a gift of intercession - though I do agree with you Arbiter that there are times of special prayer that the Lord gifts people with.
3. Many of the practices surrounding what is called "intercession" in contemporary charismatic churches are not Biblical and not edifying and result from an ignorance of the redemptive work of Christ. Examples are "standing in the gap", "spiritual warfare" and "pulling down strongholds". There is no Biblical example or teaching that these should be part of prayer.
4. "Intercession" often takes people off focus from Christ and His completed work. If you are in a meeting and people spend two hours yelling at the devil, there is a problem.

This is the context of our debate: that is why I am emphasising private prayer, not due to my making prayer out to be something it is not.

While it is true that Jesus lives to make intersession for us saints, it is not some title particular to Him alone, we certainly will know that aspect of prayer to some degree in our lives also as we are being conformed to Him. Intersession is a form of prayer just like petition is, and some Christians will operate more in it than others, so if Guyon is utilized by GOD this way, it is perfectly fine. I've spent hours upon hours at times in that form of prayer before, but it is not the only form of prayer happening through me all of the time, sometimes GOD would just want me to draw near HIM and wait on HIM, more of a worship type communion prayer.

I stopped buying books on what prayer and spiritual warfare was a long, long time ago. Most people in this area are only writing from a head knowledge point of view to sell a product.

Being very honest, I am not a big fan of prayer meetings. Some of the people in the church are quite keen for one and we are going to start having one monthly next year. I like my prayer life being personal. I know that is an area I need to develop in - not least of which because people need their pastor to be a role model in the area of prayer. I enjoy corporate prayer and three of our last five Sunday services have been pretty much prayer meetings for the nations of the world.

However, like you I agree that everyone should be praying.

Most Christians don't pursue reaching out in prayer this way, or you find the clowns attempting to exploit the prayer meetings as their time to try hyper-spiritual things. If you are able to get folks interested in such things and see good results, more power to you.

Moving aside from the "gift" aspect, do you think that it is appropriate given the fact that Jesus Christ has been the perfect propitiation for the sins of the world to say that people are "standing in the gap" or engaging in spiritual warfare? If so, what Scriptural basis do you have for this.

Blessings,
Ben

I think it is more than appropriate,..

Eph 6:12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world–rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

We can't wrestle against spiritual things with our flesh.

 

[KingZzub]

While it is true that Jesus lives to make intersession for us saints, it is not some title particular to Him alone,

I have yet to see Biblical evidence of this Arbiter, which I think was what started this thread in the first place!

we certainly will know that aspect of prayer to some degree in our lives also as we are being conformed to Him.

I understand your point here - but I think in His work as Redeemer He is absolutely unique.

Intersession is a form of prayer just like petition is, and some Christians will operate more in it than others, so if Guyon is utilized by GOD this way, it is perfectly fine. I've spent hours upon hours at times in that form of prayer before, but it is not the only form of prayer happening through me all of the time, sometimes GOD would just want me to draw near HIM and wait on HIM, more of a worship type communion prayer.

Define what you do in these hours and hours, if it is not worship and communion. You say you have spent hours in intercession. What exactly do you mean? What did you do in that time?

I stopped buying books on what prayer and spiritual warfare was a long, long time ago. Most people in this area are only writing from a head knowledge point of view to sell a product.

I can't comment, I haven't read many of them at all. People for some reason like to buy books for pastors to try and get them to follow their fad of the week, so I often flick through them. I was bought a beautiful copy of the Bahai "holy" "scriptures" this week by someone who comes to the church who wants me to be a little less narrow minded on the way to salvation!

Most Christians don't pursue reaching out in prayer this way, or you find the clowns attempting to exploit the prayer meetings as their time to try hyper-spiritual things. If you are able to get folks interested in such things and see good results, more power to you.

Operating in the prophetic is a lot easier than communing with God, so many people like to turn a prayer meeting into a let's lay hands on everyone meeting and prophesy. I hope these meetings will go well. Our church service last Sunday went on for about 6 hours, including an hour lunch break, and the last couple of hours was just prayer and it was awesome, so I am positive it is going to go well.

I think it is more than appropriate,..

Which is where we differ. I notice no Scriptures were forthcoming there!

We can't wrestle against spiritual things with our flesh.

Agreed, but is Paul talking about prayer here or our lifestyle? Prayer is part of the armour of God but Ephesians 6 is about what we should do in our life, not our prayer closet. In your prayer closet you pray to your Father, then you go and live your life dealing with the devil. The devil should not even be in your prayer closet.

I wrestle against devils when I tell a heroin addict that Jesus loves Him.
I wrestle against devils when I preach the gospel to a crowd.
I wrestle against devils when I forgive someone who has wronged me.
I wrestle against devils when I deal with the fear in my mind and choose to think about the Word of God.

I do not wrestle against devils in the prayer closet, I rest in the presence of my Father.

Blessings,
Ben

 

[ARBITER01]

I have yet to see Biblical evidence of this Arbiter, which I think was what started this thread in the first place!

I understand your point here - but I think in His work as Redeemer He is absolutely unique.

Define what you do in these hours and hours, if it is not worship and communion. You say you have spent hours in intercession. What exactly do you mean? What did you do in that time?

I can't comment, I haven't read many of them at all. People for some reason like to buy books for pastors to try and get them to follow their fad of the week, so I often flick through them. I was bought a beautiful copy of the Bahai "holy" "scriptures" this week by someone who comes to the church who wants me to be a little less narrow minded on the way to salvation!

Operating in the prophetic is a lot easier than communing with God, so many people like to turn a prayer meeting into a let's lay hands on everyone meeting and prophesy. I hope these meetings will go well. Our church service last Sunday went on for about 6 hours, including an hour lunch break, and the last couple of hours was just prayer and it was awesome, so I am positive it is going to go well.

Which is where we differ. I notice no Scriptures were forthcoming there!

Agreed, but is Paul talking about prayer here or our lifestyle? Prayer is part of the armour of God but Ephesians 6 is about what we should do in our life, not our prayer closet. In your prayer closet you pray to your Father, then you go and live your life dealing with the devil. The devil should not even be in your prayer closet.

I wrestle against devils when I tell a heroin addict that Jesus loves Him.
I wrestle against devils when I preach the gospel to a crowd.
I wrestle against devils when I forgive someone who has wronged me.
I wrestle against devils when I deal with the fear in my mind and choose to think about the Word of God.

I do not wrestle against devils in the prayer closet, I rest in the presence of my Father.

Blessings,
Ben

And it looks to be a crossroads situation.

I think it is better to discuss this further with like minds now. Good day.

 

[KingZzub]

I am open to your claim that there are intercessors in the church and that we can do spiritual warfare in the manner you suggest.

All you need to do is show me the Scriptural evidence.

 

[ARBITER01]

If we look back at the Old Testament temple, which is a pattern of the heavenly realities, we find that there were those priests that were specifically assigned by God to keep this incense burning day and night, continually before Him. This was a legitimate work of the priesthood. Not all priests did it, but those assigned by God. If God gave this assignment to certain of the priests as service before Him, and those things are a shadow of the real, is it far-fetched to think that some today might have that same ministry patterned for us in the OldTestament? Would it be too far off base to call their ministry one of intercession?

No it is correct. Incense is a prayer type, and those priests foreshadowed the born again Christian's priesthood.

 

[KingZzub]

Sorry to sound like a scratched LP - what is the Scriptural basis for this? Is the only Biblical evidence for a New Testament ministry of intercession one type?

 

[ARBITER01]

A good article on the royal priesthood of the believer is over at bible.org, here is a portion on intercession,..

In addition to offering the four sacrifices outlined in the Scriptures, the believer priest should offer intercession to God. This aspect of his priestly work involves all his work in prayer, regardless of its particular character. In view of the individual’s position in Christ which has constituted him a member of a royal priesthood, he may pray in Christ’s name (John 14:13-14). He also has the right to bring his own personal needs to God and expect God to supply (Phil 4:6-7, 19). The believer priest, however, should not be occupied only with his own needs, but also with the needs of others (Eph 6:18). His prayer should be characterized as being continual, i.e., uninterrupted (1 Thess 5:17). As priests, believers have the right to enter into the heavenly holy of holies (Heb 10:19-22) and there may plead their case and intercede before a mercy seat made gracious by the shed blood of Christ. In offering his sacrifices and intercession, the believer priest is fulfilling in large measure his total effective ministry for God in this world. The fulfillment of his priestly responsibilities is integral in any vital Christian experience and effective witness for God.

The Present Work of Christ — Part VI: The Present Work of Christ in Heaven (Part 4) | Bible.org; NET Bible, Bible Study

 

[~RENEE~]

intercession is praying point blank it is not doing nothing as prayer is the best weapon we have. The job of an intercessor is to pray.

For more info please read my siggy.

 

[MadameGuyon]

Our biblical basis for operating as intercessors to GOD is centered around our calling as priests,..

Exactly, one of the titles God gives us as believers is 'priests', and if we look at the O.T. pattern we see the priests (Levites) serving in many different priestly capacities and labors.

Of the Levites, God assigned only to Aaron's bloodline, the priestly job of offering the incense day and night.

This shows me that it is God who decides what our role as priest will look like. We will not all do the exact same thing, but we are all priests.

Incense is a prayer type, and those priests foreshadowed the born again Christian's priesthood.

Yes, we can learn much from studying the pattern left to us.

To me, ministry provides edification from The Holy Spirit. When someone is trying to operate in an area that they were not placed in by The Holy Spirit, there will be no edification to our spirit from The Holy Spirit through them.

I so agree with this. We must help people find what God has put in them as individuals, what lights up their eyes when they think of serving in His kingdom, and then encourage them to do that.

To put all saints in a very small box of what being a witness of Christ means in this world, is very confusing and damaging to people. The WHOLE counsel of God opens our eyes to what this 'ministry of reconciliation' looks like.

Being very honest, I am not a big fan of prayer meetings. Some of the people in the church are quite keen for one and we are going to start having one monthly next year. I like my prayer life being personal. I know that is an area I need to develop in - not least of which because people need their pastor to be a role model in the area of prayer.

Where specifically does it state in scripture that the pastor has to lead and role model prayer in the church? You may have a budding intercessor in your church just itching to start a prayer team.

If you are not a big fan of prayer meetings and prefer your prayer life being personal, it's a good sign there is no annointing on you to be the leader of this, but other's in your congregation may be quite gifted in starting and leading such a group. As pastor, you could oversee it, for the protection of the participates.

do you think that it is appropriate given the fact that Jesus Christ has been the perfect propitiation for the sins of the world to say that people are "standing in the gap" or engaging in spiritual warfare?

It has already been explained to you that this standing in the gap (intercessions) is not the same as Jesus role of being a mediator, but is simply praying on behalf of the needs of other people, nations, etc. etc........a going to God to see what He wants to do for another, and then being the one to pray His will. In fact, I don't even recall using the term 'standing in the gap' when talking about intercessors. I don't see it as such.
So why do you keep going back to what no one is saying in the first place?

 

[MadameGuyon]

intercession is praying point blank it is not doing nothing as prayer is the best weapon we have. The job of an intercessor is to pray.

For more info please read my siggy.

D. L. Moody said, "I’d rather be able to pray than be a great preacher; Jesus Christ never taught his disciples how to preach, but only how to pray."

Good point! I hadn't thought of that, but it's true.