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Is there a scientific consensus that evolution is a fact?

Papias

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Buster and I agreed to start a thread discussing whether or not there was a current scientific consensus on whether or not evolution was supported by enough evidence to be considered a fact. Other "facts" would be things like whether or not the roman empire existed or if the earth goes around the sun.

This is not the same as whether or not a lot of people who haven't examined the evidence as scientists see evolution as a fact. Many polls have shown that around 50% of the US population are YEC, and that point is neither disputed nor relevant to this thread.

I'll open this up with a data point.

The 1997 gallup poll of scientists here: Beliefs of the U.S. public about evolution and creation

lists support for evolution at 95%. That sure sounds like a consensus to me.

It also may be useful to look closely at the lists of scientists who reject evolution that are shown by creationist groups.

Papias
 

busterdog

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How is a gallup poll in the United States determinative of anything? How is it that your sample of American scientists is to impress anyone at all? YOu first demonstrate the superiority of your sample. But your sample deserves no such special consideration. THerefore, there isn't consensus.


In Nigeria, the Muslim population shows strong anti-evolution tendencies. In academic discussion, there is evidence for a divide, just as Ben Stein told us there was in the West.

Smart People See Ghosts

Thinking about Evolution – NigeriansTalk


In your figures, 44% of educated Americans accept some form of creationism. Only scientists count?

How many scientists believe in God in your sample? Even by the admissions of the strident and brutal Eugenie Scott, what those same scientists believe in is pretty bloody vague kind of God. How exactly does one allow this same group define consensus? They can't quite figure out who is responsible even for their own evolution.

http://ncse.com/rncse/18/2/do-scientists-really-reject-god

The questions that Eugenie Scott threw out and her confessions on such matters were pretty telling. She seems to think there is some point to be made about whether God is intelligent and able to communicate. That issue is hardly separate from the whole issue of what origins are. A very large part of the world believes that these communications are the basis of our origins as well as our knowledge of those origins. This other body of scientists that you use to define consensus seems to want to quibble about God's communication abilities and power to answer prayer. Oh, gee, yeah, these are the geniuses we need to hear from!

By analogy, if we have to think really hard about whether or not God is modeled better on the Sistine Chapel or Snoop Dog CDs, maybe we are talking less about a real GOd at that point and talking more about our confusion. Eugenie Scott's supposedly insightful distinctions are absurd and show she barely has a grip on what it means to believe in God in the first place.

THe point is that there is not such thing a world wide consensus without a complete theory on which to agree. Evolution is a partial hodge podge without a beginning point. For GOd's sake, Darwinism is even tossing randomness and huff puffing about this as a minor change in a theory with great integrity. Such silliness is obvious, and in this context, the rest of the world needn't be embarrassed in such company. As such, the rest of the world can hardly be written off as irrelevant when it is quite willing to articulate a basis for our origins that American science avoids or about which it is admittedly speculative.

I am quite aware that abiogenesis is not part of Darwinism as it wishes to define itself. My point is that because Darwinism doesnt come to grips with it, that the so called arbiters of consensus are not a credible bunch. Said otherwise, if you self-select to determine what is consensus, you don't have one.

Lets also not get confused about the standard of proof here. You are arguing to prove consensus. THat should be an enormously high standard of proof -- like proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in the case of murder.

If one rephrases the question and simply asks which theories are reasonable, I say that evolution has a certain elegance and a good body of evidence behind it -- from a scientific perspective. But, to try to support it as the only credible theory, there is no reason not to be merciless in attacking its supposed supremacy.
 
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Assyrian

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Hi Busterdog, nice to see you back. Interesting argument. Creationists don't have to worry about the scientific consensus on evolution because there can be no scientific consensus without a complete theory. Is there any area of science that meets your requirement? At very least, until CERN comes with evidence for super symmetry in the particles that make up atom we cannot claim any scientific consensus on atomic theory. Even if supersymmetry is found that will probably just be the beginning of a whole new area of study rather that its completion. So any creationists who wants to deny the existence of atoms is perfectly justified. Why shouldn't they be if there is no scientific consensus on the theory? Likewise, we haven't worked out all the details of the solar system Kuiper belt and Oort cloud, there is still disagreement over what constitutes a planet, and as for understanding what gravity is which is supposed to keep the planets in obit around the sun, well... we don't even have a Higgs yet. So no complete theory on the solar system, so no possible worldwide scientific consensus about it. Perhaps you can tell where I am going here. Anyone for geocentrism? According to creationism the field is still wide open. And lets see, what do we still not know about the structure of the earth, that some scientists arrogantly claim is round...
 
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busterdog

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As you suggest, I think there is practically no theory that can meet these requirements. That doesnt mean we don't have any good theories. I might even concede Darwinism is a decent theory, but falls far from being consensus. The consensus thing just doesnt work.

The American academics might say that there is a strong majority for their view of evolution, within their particular circle. But, hunger for knowledge, by definition, doesnt regard matters such as evolution as settled. I think that is implied in your comment, though we apply different emphases.

At the very least, there are unsettled areas within evolution where maybe the creationists come close to an answer, even if they are wrong about common descent. I would even say that, in reading Darwins writing about his spiritual journey, that the Dogone at least have a purpose and divine order in what they put forth as their origin story -- even if it is all sexualized and, as such, goofy. http://www.gateway-africa.com/stories/Dogon_Creation_Myth.html
 
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Dark_Lite

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At the very least, there are unsettled areas within evolution where maybe the creationists come close to an answer,http://www.gateway-africa.com/stories/Dogon_Creation_Myth.html

Nah. There isn't anything creationists come close to answering affirmatively in science. The entire creationist movement, YECism in particular, is based on a rejection of evolution and holding to an outdated interpretation of the Bible, and redefining science (or just making stuff up; usually both) so they can fit the existing evidence into their framework. OEC isn't as bad as YEC, but the OEC movement doesn't really bring anything to the table. They accept that the universe is old, and then just deny evolution and don't really have any other explanation for things besides "God did it."

Can you point to one scientific thing that creationism can describe better than evolutionary theory?
 
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Assyrian

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As you suggest, I think there is practically no theory that can meet these requirements. That doesnt mean we don't have any good theories.
And it doesn't mean there can't be consensus about what the theories have established.

I might even concede Darwinism is a decent theory, but falls far from being consensus. The consensus thing just doesnt work.
No, trying to conflate consensus with completness does not work. There was consensus about heliocentrism long ago even though our understanding of the solar system and gravity still isn't complete.

Creationist have one thing right, they understand that God created everything, here they know something that Dawkins does not, though they have got every other claim about the history of the universe and life on earth wrong. At least the Dogon seem to have got the Sirius star system right. But even the bit Creationists got right, knowing God is Creator, they haven't even got a particulary good understanding of what that means. They think God can only operate through the miraculous, not through natural processes, even natural processes he created. So something happening naturally must mean, for the creationist, that God is not involved. It is not even a view that can hold consistently, not if they thank God before their meals. It is a dichotomy that only really exists in their minds when they think about creation. The uniquely modern creationist take on creation is a major departure from the understanding of the church through the ages that God operates both through the natural and the supernatural. So no, I do not think creationists are coming close to an answer, they are wandering further away from one.
 
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busterdog

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Not rejectionism of everything, just silly arrogance like this.

Can you point to one scientific thing that creationism can describe better than evolutionary theory?

Try google.
 
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Papias

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Philadiddle wrote:

Define "consensus".

I don't think it would need to be 100% to be a consensus, 99.9% would do. Do both sides agree on that?

I agree. How about 80%? After all, one can always find nutcases in any field, since we are talking about humans here, which vary. In an election, 60% is considered a landslide.

As others have pointed out, a theory need not be complete for consensus support. The solar system example given is good, plus, the theory of evolution's modern form (known as the "modern synthesis") is more complete than a lot of other well accepted theories, such as the theory of gravity or the germ theory of disease. Any area of real scientific research will have active areas, almost by definition.

Buster wrote:
In your figures, 44% of educated Americans accept some form of creationism. Only scientists count?

Well, yes. That's because we are talking about the "scientific consensus". I thought I was pretty clear about that in the opening post.

How many scientists believe in God in your sample?

Let's stick to relevant points. For instance, the opinions of the general population in in the US or Nigeria doesn't help us understand what the opinion of scientists is. Also, let's try to avoid assertions made without evidence.


How is a gallup poll in the United States determinative of anything?
Um, because it is actual data. If you want to make an assertion of something, provide data.

How is it that your sample of American scientists is to impress anyone at all?
Um, because it is actual data. If you want to make an assertion of something, provide data.

THerefore, there isn't consensus.

OK, that's an assertion. Waiting for data........

Stories about an individual are not data. The Gallup poll included thousands of people. Anecdotal stories are not data.

OK, more data, anyone?

Papias
 
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Calypsis4

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Here is the Gallup poll listed at NeuroLogica Blog » New Gallup Poll on Creation and Evolution



So it's 44% creation by God --36% God guided evolution--14% evolution with no God involved.

As far as biblical Christians are concerned it is what the Lord says in His word that is truth about origins and not a consensus of scientists opinions. Majority opinion does not determine truth, God does.

We believe him and not the brainwashed individuals who believe in wrongful interpretations and tortured logic as it concerns the available scientific facts.

"For in six days the Lord God made the heavens and the earth..." Moses in Exodus 20:11.
 
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Calypsis4

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The six day creation doctrine will NEVER be outdated because it is now and has always been the truth of the origins of our world and the scientific facts support it, not evolution. Evolution is a joke believed in by people who should know better.



The pinwheel galaxy (NGC4622) with outer arms that are moving clockwise(!) and the inner arms are moving counterclockwise(!). So if this celestial object was not designed this way purposely by the Creator then just how did stellar 'evolution' accomplish this physics anomaly?
 
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Dark_Lite

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Creationisms IS science. Evolution is a myth.

Then post something scientific that creationism explains far more accurately than evolutionary theory. Things that don't count:

-Copy and pasted articles from AiG that attack evolutionary theory based on strawmen.
-Anything that actually attacks evolution. You need to find something that phrases a claim positively. If evolution were ever falsified, that would not magically prove YECism.
 
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busterdog

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I have a better idea. I will just post stuff that pleases creationists. You just keep rejecting everything creationists say, which just entrenches creationists even more.

Most creationists are not here to dialogue. We are just mucking up the Evol. party line so that the odd lurker can see the truth now and again. You can pretend you want to dialogue all you want. Most creationists are not fooled anymore.
 
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busterdog

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Maybe this is not "science," because the facts are so obviously inconsistent with evolution (well, conventional cosmology), that a child can see it? Just trying to help. Maybe you need a degree to get it wrong.
 
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Dark_Lite

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Most creationists are not here to dialogue. We are just mucking up the Evol. party line so that the odd lurker can see the truth now and again. You can pretend you want to dialogue all you want. Most creationists are not fooled anymore.

That's a very interesting statement.
 
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Calypsis4

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Don't try and dictate to me what does and doesn't 'count'. I am not interested in such an opinion. I could just as easily pull the same thing on you as it concerns the 'scientists' at 'talk/origins'.

There are lots of scientific reasons for a young earth. First and formost is the historical chronology listed by Moses in Genesis 5 & 11. I have seen no skeptic opinion that would invalidate the veracity of that lineage of early man. Not only so, but much of it has been verified historically by historian Bill Cooper in his work After the Flood in which he traces the royal families of Europe all the way back to pre-flood times.

Secondly, the presence of Carbon-14 in diamonds and other minerals speaks loudly of a young earth.

http://www.icr.org/pdf/research/AGUC-14_Poster_Baumgardner.pdf

Thirdly, there are a host of evidences from the heavens that reveal a young universe...by way of example:



Stars emerging from the same point of origin moving in opposite directions that if their velocity is extrapolated backwards, could not be more than ten thousand yrs old.



Galaxy NGC7319 with what is supposed to be a quasar 12 billion miles beyond the galaxy...but the quasar is in front of and/or between the galaxy and the earth, the red shift theory notwithstanding. This suggests that the distance of the stars as is commonly believed is not nearly what we have long thought.
 
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busterdog

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