Is there a group of people who think they are saved, but really aren't?

[jiminpa]

According to Calvinism?

 

[mlqurgw]

According to Calvinism?

All those who think that they saved themselves by something they did, though they deny it vehemently. It doesn't matter how small that thing you did is. The reality is that if you did something that something is what you put your faith in.
BTW, I do not speak for all Calvinists.

 

[jiminpa]

All those who think that they saved themselves by something they did, though they deny it vehemently. It doesn't matter how small that thing you did is. The reality is that if you did something that something is what you put your faith in.
BTW, I do not speak for all Calvinists.

So by what you are saying only Calvinists are saved, since Calvinists believe that accepting the salvation God offers is a work? Just trying to clarify.

Not the response I expected, but okay.

 

[A New Dawn]

So by what you are saying only Calvinists are saved, since Calvinists believe that accepting the salvation God offers is a work? Just trying to clarify.

Not the response I expected, but okay.

I don't know if there are Calvinists that believe that, but I don't. I believe that God always makes the first move, but, while there are lightening conversions (like Paul's, sort of), most are gentle urgings that people follow, many thinking that it comes from themselves. That's why they think they have accepted the salvation, but it was God there first, guiding them. But they are saved, just the same. Just misguided.

 

[mlqurgw]

So by what you are saying only Calvinists are saved, since Calvinists believe that accepting the salvation God offers is a work? Just trying to clarify.

Not the response I expected, but okay.

I don't believe God offers salvation but that He gives it. The Scriptures declare plainly that salvation is a gift of God. Calvinism isn't salvation faith in Christ alone is. There are some dead Calvinists. The Scriptures clearly teach that works have nothing to do with salvation. I find nowhere in the New Testament where, when preaching the Gospel, the Apostles asked anyone to do anything. The thing that is of most importance is the Christ that is preached and the true message of the Gospel. The Gospel isn't you do something because God does something. It isn't centered on man at all but on the person and work of Christ. It isn't designed to give man something to do but to glorify Christ and by the power of the Spirit bring chosen sinners unto faith in Him. The Gospel that is preached is different. I know some very orthodox Calvinists who still don't know what it means to preach the Gospel. Doctrine doesn't save Christ does.

What was the answer you expected?

 

[Avatar]

It's all about the works baby!

(And the statues, need statues too. And praying to dead people, can't forget that one. )

 

[jiminpa]

I guess I was expecting something more along the lines of a type of reprobate which is so self-deceived that he believes he is saved, but really isn't. I think I heard it a long time ago as a way to explain those who have turned away from the faith.

 

[A New Dawn]

I guess I was expecting something more along the lines of a type of reprobate which is so self-deceived that he believes he is saved, but really isn't. I think I heard it a long time ago as a way to explain those who have turned away from the faith.

The I (irresistible grace) and P (preservation of the saints) of the TULIP do state that when God decides to save someone, they cannot refuse Him, and that once someone is saved, God preserves them in their faith.

Romans 8 helps us understand that.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

So they who were justified were also glorified. It is the general belief of Calvinism that if one turns away from the truth then he was never really saved, because once one is (truly) saved, they will be glorified.

 

[mlqurgw]

I guess I was expecting something more along the lines of a type of reprobate which is so self-deceived that he believes he is saved, but really isn't. I think I heard it a long time ago as a way to explain those who have turned away from the faith.

All reprobates are self-deceived thinking that they are OK eternally. Very many are filling pews every Sunday morning. Those who run for a while and then go back to their old ways were never really saved if God leaves them to die in their sin. Salvation doesn't depend on how sincere you are, how much you believe, how you live, love and give. It is wholly and totally by and in Christ. He is salvation. When you truly have Him you have all those other things.

 

[oworm]

Is there a group of people who think they are saved, but really aren't? According to Calvinism?

The final authority in answering such a question leaves us in no doupt that there are those who think they are saved and really aren't.


Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

So according to the Calvinist doctrine of sola scriptura then yes there are a group of people who think they are saved but really aren't

 

[xapis]

Well said, oworm. And ch. XVIII (Of Assurance of Grace and Salvation) of the Westminster Confession of Faith affirms this: http://reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/ch_XVIII.html

That should answer the op's question squarely enough.

 

[ReformedChapin]

According to Calvinism?

Yeah, they call themselves Liberal Christians.

 

[skullkrusher]

All those who think that they saved themselves by something they did, though they deny it vehemently. It doesn't matter how small that thing you did is. The reality is that if you did something that something is what you put your faith in.
BTW, I do not speak for all Calvinists.

Perhaps I misundertood due to the brevity of your post, but it seems you're implying that one who doesn't understand the doctrines of grace is hell-bound. That's a dangerous view to espouse; the fullness of one's grasp on the intricacies of the Lord's grace isn't the defining factor in justificatin; it pertains to sanctification.

 

[mlqurgw]

Perhaps I misundertood due to the brevity of your post, but it seems you're implying that one who doesn't understand the doctrines of grace is hell-bound. That's a dangerous view to espouse; the fullness of one's grasp on the intricacies of the Lord's grace isn't the defining factor in justificatin; it pertains to sanctification.

I don't mean to imply anything so I will do my best to be as clear as I possibly can. A knowledge of the Doctrines of Grace aren't required any more than being able to recite the five points of Calvinism. What is required is to know Christ as he is revealed in the Scriptures and to look to Him alone for all that God requires and gives. No saved sinner believes that salvation depends on or is conditioned in any way on something, no matter how small that something is, that the sinner does. That would clearly leave out all those who look to a decision they made or a faith they mustered or a card they signed, a walk they performed or any other thing that false free-will works religion teaches. I do not in any way seek to be contentious or to shut the door on any but I must bow to the Scriptures and stand on what is revealed by the Spirit. Any who trust a false christ or trust in a false gospel are not saved. At least not yet. That is why it is so urgent to preach the Gospel as it is in Christ Jesus the Lord to a lost and dying religious world as much as to a lost and dying profligate one. I would venture to say that I would disagree with you on the matter of sanctification. I do not hold to progressive sanctification but take the word as it is used in Scripture.

 

[bradfordl]

It's all about the works baby!

(And the statues, need statues too. And praying to dead people, can't forget that one. )

Coulds someone please remove the image included in this poster's signature that violates the second commandment from this forum? It is highly offensive.

 

[skullkrusher]

I don't mean to imply anything so I will do my best to be as clear as I possibly can. A knowledge of the Doctrines of Grace aren't required any more than being able to recite the five points of Calvinism. What is required is to know Christ as he is revealed in the Scriptures and to look to Him alone for all that God requires and gives. No saved sinner believes that salvation depends on or is conditioned in any way on something, no matter how small that something is, that the sinner does. That would clearly leave out all those who look to a decision they made or a faith they mustered or a card they signed, a walk they performed or any other thing that false free-will works religion teaches. I do not in any way seek to be contentious or to shut the door on any but I must bow to the Scriptures and stand on what is revealed by the Spirit. Any who trust a false christ or trust in a false gospel are not saved. At least not yet. That is why it is so urgent to preach the Gospel as it is in Christ Jesus the Lord to a lost and dying religious world as much as to a lost and dying profligate one. I would venture to say that I would disagree with you on the matter of sanctification. I do not hold to progressive sanctification but take the word as it is used in Scripture.

This thread may be long-dead by now, but I just picked up the response (haven't been on CF much lately). At any rate, I'm curious about your view of sanctification -- progressive sanctification can be understood in a couple different ways, so, what exactly do you not agree with about it? granting that the saved are objectively sanctified en toto does not nullify the temporal reality of growth in holiness. If we reject that concept, we are running contrary to Scripture.

 

[mlqurgw]

This thread may be long-dead by now, but I just picked up the response (haven't been on CF much lately). At any rate, I'm curious about your view of sanctification -- progressive sanctification can be understood in a couple different ways, so, what exactly do you not agree with about it? granting that the saved are objectively sanctified en toto does not nullify the temporal reality of growth in holiness. If we reject that concept, we are running contrary to Scripture.

Growth in grace and sanctification aren't the same thing. We certainly do grow in grace and knowledge of Christ and His truth but that isn't sanctification. That is growth in grace. The meaning of the word sanctify, sanctification in the Scriptures means primarily to be set apart as holy. It also means to be declared holy and to be made holy. Now there are not nor can be degrees to holiness or righteousness. You are either holy or you aren't. You are either righteous or you aren't. You can't become more holy or more righteous. It is an impossibility. To be almost holy is to be unholy. To be almost righteous is to be unrighteous. Now with that in mind we see that we were set apart as holy in eternal election, declared holy in justification and made holy in regeneration. That doesn't mean that I hold to any form of perfectionism but I recognize that believers are a people of 2 natures: flesh and spirit. Gal. 5:17 The flesh remains flesh and never gets better. When we are regenerated we become a new creature in Christ with a holy nature that cannot sin because we are His seed and it remains in us. 1John:3:9.

 

[oworm]

Growth in grace and sanctification aren't the same thing. We certainly do grow in grace and knowledge of Christ and His truth but that isn't sanctification. That is growth in grace. The meaning of the word sanctify, sanctification in the Scriptures means primarily to be set apart as holy. It also means to be declared holy and to be made holy. Now there are not nor can be degrees to holiness or righteousness. You are either holy or you aren't. You are either righteous or you aren't. You can't become more holy or more righteous. It is an impossibility. To be almost holy is to be unholy. To be almost righteous is to be unrighteous. Now with that in mind we see that we were set apart as holy in eternal election, declared holy in justification and made holy in regeneration. That doesn't mean that I hold to any form of perfectionism but I recognize that believers are a people of 2 natures: flesh and spirit. Gal. 5:17 The flesh remains flesh and never gets better. When we are regenerated we become a new creature in Christ with a holy nature that cannot sin because we are His seed and it remains in us. 1John:3:9.

Hmmmm........ I'm kind of wondering how that position fits with Paul's word to the Thessalonians
1 Thess 5: 23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Given that the epistle is written to believers, why would Paul pray for their complete sanctification if they are already completely sanctified?

 

[mlqurgw]

Hmmmm........ I'm kind of wondering how that position fits with Paul's word to the Thessalonians
1 Thess 5: 23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Given that the epistle is written to believers, why would Paul pray for their complete sanctification if they are already completely sanctified?

While growing in grace and sanctification aren't the same thing they are closely united. As we grow in grace we do grow in separation but we do not become more holy. Paul here is just seeking that the Thessalonians become wholly separated unto God.

 

[oworm]

While growing in grace and sanctification aren't the same thing they are closely united. As we grow in grace we do grow in separation but we do not become more holy. Paul here is just seeking that the Thessalonians become wholly separated unto God.

I didn't want to quote you out of context so I highlighted the part of your reply that I wanted to address. First let me go back a little in 1st Thessalonians and Paul's final exhortation to the believers ther where he says:

1 Thess 4:1-8 Finally, then, brothers, we ask and urge you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God, just as you are doing, that you do so more and more. 2 For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, your sanctification:that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God; that no one transgress and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly warned you. For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness. Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.

Paul does seem to suggest that there is a progression or growth in holiness.

Also the writer to the Hebrews exhorts believers to:

"Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14)

Why would there be an exhortation to strive after holiness if it was already a completed event?

I think our problem may be semantic in nature and that is what is raising the questions and continuing the discussion.

Sanctification in scripture carries a double meaning.

From the Old Testament the utensils that were used as part of the ritualistic blood sacrifices were said to be set apart (sanctified) for that use. They were to be used exclusively for that purpose. The word as you have correctly pointed out means to be set apart. But there is also another meaning whereby we are called to play our part in the sanctifying process of growing more Christlike. This is also refered to as sanctification but it is the, often painful process, in which we strive against our flesh and strain toward a more Holy attitude.

So we are set apart (sanctified) for Holy use and we are being set apart as we progress in holiness of attitude and grow more Christlike.

Sanctification is a work of grace however. We are only able as we are enabled to obey and grow. Sanctification like Justification is a one time event in the sense that the Lord sets us apart for His use but unlike Justification it is something that we engage in as we strive against our flesh and strain toward the goal. The Lord puts us on the path of sanctification and we must walk along it in His strength and power.