Is The Trinity Biblical?

[@@Paul@@]

Many good saints of God respond to posts such as this regarding the "trinity" and yet there is no solid agreement among them on this topic. Other topics such as "the death burial and resurrection of Jesus", "the virgin birth", "Lordship of Jesus" and such do not reveal this sort of disagreement. Why is it?
I for one certainly agree with the Nicene Creed and that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God... but not the invented concept of the "trinity" with which people try to put God in their neat little box.
The disagreements exist simply because a group of people have invented a word and are trying to define the nature of God by that word, and in so doing diminish the true definition of God. God is not bound by our definitions or limited to our small attempts to box Him into our useless attempts to describe Him. This aspect of the nature of the unity of God is a mystery, which is a hidden thing, which God says belongs to Him! Do not try and steal what belongs to God!

Deu 29:29
29 The secret [things belong] unto the LORD our God: but those [things which are] revealed [belong] unto us and to our children for ever, that [we] may do all the words of this law.

God said that we should understand the Father by the revelation Jesus gave us. He is the exact image of the Father and if you want to see that Father or what the Father is like all you have to do is look at Jesus. Jesus is the revelation of the Father and belongs to us. As a believer in Jesus I confess that He succeeded in His mission to show us the Father, so there no need to invent any other doctrine or term to define and understand Him.

I have no problem with anyone who uses or teaches the "trinity"... but I do with those who insist that we accept their man made doctrines "or else".

Trying to fit God into a little concept of "trinity" is like trying to force the raging sea into a cup. You think you are doing something noble and spiritual... but all you are doing is blinding yourselves and others to the truth as revealed in Jesus!

Nicely said... I'll add the following verse.

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.​

 

[Philip]

If one meant the english word personhood, they should have used it.

Just to i fully understand, would that mean:

hupostasis
hoop-os'-tas-is
From a compound of G5259 and G2476; a setting under (support), that is, (figuratively) concretely essence, or abstractly assurance (objectively or subjectively): - confidence, confident, person, substance.​

OR

prosōpon
pros'-o-pon
From G4314 and ὤψ ōps (the visage; from G3700); the front (as being towards view), that is, the countenance, aspect, appearance, surface; by implication presence, person: - (outward) appearance, X before, countenance, face, fashion, (men’s) person, presence.​

hypostases

 

[TugOwar]

Many good saints of God respond to posts such as this regarding the "trinity" and yet there is no solid agreement among them on this topic. Other topics such as "the death burial and resurrection of Jesus", "the virgin birth", "Lordship of Jesus" and such do not reveal this sort of disagreement. Why is it?
I for one certainly agree with the Nicene Creed and that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God... but not the invented concept of the "trinity" with which people try to put God in their neat little box.
The disagreements exist simply because a group of people have invented a word and are trying to define the nature of God by that word, and in so doing diminish the true definition of God. God is not bound by our definitions or limited to our small attempts to box Him into our useless attempts to describe Him. This aspect of the nature of the unity of God is a mystery, which is a hidden thing, which God says belongs to Him! Do not try and steal what belongs to God!

Deu 29:29
29 The secret [things belong] unto the LORD our God: but those [things which are] revealed [belong] unto us and to our children for ever, that [we] may do all the words of this law.

God said that we should understand the Father by the revelation Jesus gave us. He is the exact image of the Father and if you want to see that Father or what the Father is like all you have to do is look at Jesus. Jesus is the revelation of the Father and belongs to us. As a believer in Jesus I confess that He succeeded in His mission to show us the Father, so there no need to invent any other doctrine or term to define and understand Him.

I have no problem with anyone who uses or teaches the "trinity"... but I do with those who insist that we accept their man made doctrines "or else".

Trying to fit God into a little concept of "trinity" is like trying to force the raging sea into a cup. You think you are doing something noble and spiritual... but all you are doing is blinding yourselves and others to the truth as revealed in Jesus!

So very well said. Thanks for helping me get back on track. God Bless.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Not angry at all, just amazingly surprised at all I am reading not believing the rings that some will jump through just so they do not have to admit that it was the Catholic Church who defined this important doctrine in Christianity for us under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Who defended Christendom against the Arian heresy.

I agree totally that it was the Catholic Church that first wrote the doctrine of the trinity on paper but they are not the ones who revealed it. The Bible, the NT, is the document that reveals it and one doesn't have to read the nicene creed to see or understand it in the capacity we have. Sorry but I humblely disagree.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Paul, all life is a stage, right?



Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

No one hears voices "infallibily", don't be rediculous... "We have a more sure word of prophesy..." and it's not little voices.

Are you assuming we (or some) can here infallible voices from heaven?

No where does the creed explain the trinity. One could also explain "modalism" from it quite clearly...

Paul, the post was not directed to you. . .



Peace in Him!

 

[nephilimiyr]

Paul, the post was not directed to you. . .



Peace in Him!

So....none of my posts to Shelb5 was directed to you yet you felt the need to argue the point in her place.

Good job Paul

 

[nephilimiyr]

thereselittleflower, the questions that I asked you in post #34 and then answered myself was my way of showing you what I believe the answer to be. I still wanted your opinion of what you believe the answer is. As for who has the ball it's you therese not me. You still have refused to answer those questions in post #34. You didn't answer them but only showed my answers to them and then accused me of all sorts of things. This is not an honest answer but an attempt by you to by pass haveing to answer them and accuse me of being a hypocrate. Therefore you will not get an answer by me.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Many good saints of God respond to posts such as this regarding the "trinity" and yet there is no solid agreement among them on this topic. Other topics such as "the death burial and resurrection of Jesus", "the virgin birth", "Lordship of Jesus" and such do not reveal this sort of disagreement. Why is it?
I for one certainly agree with the Nicene Creed and that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God... but not the invented concept of the "trinity" with which people try to put God in their neat little box.
The disagreements exist simply because a group of people have invented a word and are trying to define the nature of God by that word, and in so doing diminish the true definition of God. God is not bound by our definitions or limited to our small attempts to box Him into our useless attempts to describe Him. This aspect of the nature of the unity of God is a mystery, which is a hidden thing, which God says belongs to Him! Do not try and steal what belongs to God!

Deu 29:29
29 The secret [things belong] unto the LORD our God: but those [things which are] revealed [belong] unto us and to our children for ever, that [we] may do all the words of this law.

God said that we should understand the Father by the revelation Jesus gave us. He is the exact image of the Father and if you want to see that Father or what the Father is like all you have to do is look at Jesus. Jesus is the revelation of the Father and belongs to us. As a believer in Jesus I confess that He succeeded in His mission to show us the Father, so there no need to invent any other doctrine or term to define and understand Him.

I have no problem with anyone who uses or teaches the "trinity"... but I do with those who insist that we accept their man made doctrines "or else".

Trying to fit God into a little concept of "trinity" is like trying to force the raging sea into a cup. You think you are doing something noble and spiritual... but all you are doing is blinding yourselves and others to the truth as revealed in Jesus!

So didaskalos

All those heresies the Early Church fought were for nothing? It really doesn't matter what one's concept of the Trinity is as long as they have some kind of concept that all three are somehow God?


Let me get this straight . .

In order to be able to post to Christian Only sections of CF, we have to hold to the Nicene Creed . .

But we don't have to hold to what the Nicene Creed MEANS??

We have to hold to the Nicene Creed but we don't have to hold to what the group of people who drafted it MEANT by it?

IF you don't hold to what they meant, then you hold to a different Creed than the Nicene Creed even though you use the same words and the same title . .

The disagreements exist simply because a group of people have invented a word and are trying to define the nature of God by that word, and in so doing diminish the true definition of God.

That "group" you are speaking of were Christians intent on preserving and holding to the Faith and protecting it against FALSE teachings . .

By divorcing one's self from the firm teachings of these Christians of the Early Church who protected the faith from corruption that heresy would cause, one divorces themselves the anchor of the Early Church founded on the teaching of the apostles . . and then is cast adrift . .

I agree many a good Christian has had diffeing views of the Trinity . .

But that doesn't make them right . . and it doesn't make it right to continue to promote a false teaching . .

What you are saying is that the teaching of the post Apostolic, pre-Nicean, post-nicean Church (that "group" of people you referred to above) is irrelevant to our understanding of the Trintiy . .


Then that makes the Creed irrelevant as well . . .


But then again, if one were to come out and say that, one would be putting themselves at odds with what CF proclaims is VERY relevant and necessary to hold to . .

I for one certainly agree with the Nicene Creed and that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God... but not the invented concept of the "trinity" with which people try to put God in their neat little box.

Do you also certainly agree with the Nicene Creed that they are of one Essence?


didaskalos

I agree with you that our understanding of the Godhead will never contain the full realtiy . . the Trinity is a mystery for which we lack the ability to conceive fully of . .

However, we are not talking about being able to completely grasp the Trinity . . it is too big for us . .

We ARE talking about right belief in regards to our ability to understand the Trinity which, due to our limited ability to grasp it, is essential so we don't go into error . .



Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

So....none of my posts to Shelb5 was directed to you yet you felt the need to argue the point in her place.

Good job Paul

Hi neph . . hmmm . . I asked some pointed questions of you, which, if Paul is not a mindreader, cannot answer for you . . that is all .


You are comparing apples to beans here neph, just deflecting attention off yourself again . .


I see you are aware of my post, and you still have not done what you said you would do . .



Peace in Him!

 

[nephilimiyr]

therese you don't have any Idea what we're talking about here do you?

 

[nephilimiyr]

Hi neph . . hmmm . . I asked some pointed questions of you, which, if Paul is not a mindreader, cannot answer for you . . that is all .


You are comparing apples to beans here neph, just deflecting attention off yourself again . .


I see you are aware of my post, and you still have not done what you said you would do . .



Peace in Him!

And I see you have yet to answer any of my questions yet.

I give my word that if you make an honest attempt at answering those questions I will answer those questions you asked me. I wont hold my breath!

 

[thereselittleflower]

thereselittleflower, the questions that I asked you in post #34 and then answered myself was my way of showing you what I believe the answer to be. I still wanted your opinion of what you believe the answer is. As for who has the ball it's you therese not me. You still have refused to answer those questions in post #34. You didn't answer them but only showed my answers to them and then accused me of all sorts of things. This is not an honest answer but an attempt by you to by pass haveing to answer them and accuse me of being a hypocrate. Therefore you will not get an answer by me.

Neph . . you are deflecting again . ..


Here is your dilema which I will clarify since you seem to be unwiling to do so .


If you answer no to my questions,

Are you able to hear and understand the Comforter perfectly?

Are you infallible in your understanding and comprehending of what He says to you?

​

You are admiting that you actually hear and understand the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, imperfectly which then means your understanding of the scriptures could be faulty, and thus your understanding of the Trinity, from just the Holy Spirit giving you wisdom about the Scriptures, could also be faulty .


This then contradicts your assertion that you do not need the Creed or what the Creed represents, the teaching of the Church, to help you understand scriptures to understand the Trinity . .

On the contrary, it shows you need something MORE than just the Holy Spirit giving you wisdom about the scriptures to understand the Trinity . .

So you clearly contradict yourself if you answer "no"



If you ansswer "yes" to my questions, well then, you loose all credibility with poeple around here . . for, as Paul so kindly pointed out (thank you Paul )

No one hears voices "infallibily",
​

And thank you Paul for clarifying what voices you are speaking of:

infallible voices from heaven . .
​

You have trapped yourself into a dilema neph . . directing your frustration at me, attempting to deflect attention off this fact and onto me is not going to change the fact that you have created a dilema from which it is not eay to extracate yourself . .

You have tangled yourself up in your own words . ..


Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

therese you don't have any Idea what we're talking about here do you?

More deflection . .


Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

And I see you have yet to answer any of my questions yet.

I give my word that if you make an honest attempt at answering those questions I will answer those questions you asked me. I wont hold my breath!

You have failed to keep your word.

You answered your own question . . . do you really think that any of us here discussing the Trinity, especially those of us familiar with the teachings of the Early Church Fathers, do not know that the comforter is the Holy Spirit neph?


just more deflection . .


Peace in Him!

 

[@@Paul@@]

I agree with you that our understanding of the Godhead will never contain the full realtiy . . the Trinity is a mystery for which we lack the ability to conceive fully of . .

However, we are not talking about being able to completely grasp the Trinity . . it is too big for us . .

We ARE talking about right belief in regards to our ability to understand the Trinity which, due to our limited ability to grasp it, is essential so we don't go into error . .


Peace in Him!

I am a mind reader… But that word “mind” from the archaic eastern pig latin, which really means “a book”.

So you admit that one cannot “completely grasp the Trinity”. Than what’s wrong with simply saying: “God is ONE, made up of three externally and eternally existing in three “persons”. And leave it at that? --------

People always find truth, the next step is to take it too far…. because we are human… Example: Pharisees. --------- The Sadducees simply held onto the beliefs they always had, they were their first.

 

[KennySe]

Do I need the nicene creed to teach me of the trinity, no.

Shelb5 and therese who is the comforter?
John 15:26, But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me

John 16:7, Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

John 15:26 talks about the Comforter comeing from the Father yet in John 16:7 Jesus refers to the Comforter as "him". The very use of the word shows that Jesus is talking about someone else. Again in John 15:26 the use of the word "he" signifies that Jesus is talking about someone else other than him.

So who is this someone else?
Acts 1:5, For John truely baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
The someone else, the Comforter, is the Holy Spirit.

And who is the Comforter/Holy Spirit?
Show me the Bible verse that answers this.

What is the relationship of the Comforter/Holy Spirit to God in heaven?
It looks like he is a messenger, as was Gabriel who visited Mary in Luke chapter 1.
Show me the Bible verse that answers my question.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I am a mind reader… But that word “mind” from the archaic eastern pig latin, which really means “a book”.

So you admit that one cannot “completely grasp the Trinity”. Than what’s wrong with simply saying: “God is ONE, made up of three externally and eternally existing in three “persons”. And leave it at that? --------

If heresies had not abounded in regards to this simplistic view, we would not have had to come up with a Creed in the first place, now would we?

People always find truth, the next step is to take it too far…. because we are human… Example: Pharisees. --------- The Sadducees simply held onto the beliefs they always had, they were their first.

If people always find the truth, then why will people end up in hell?


Peace in Him!

 

[nephilimiyr]

Talk about deflecting!


Here's your delema therese:

Do I need the nicene creed to teach me of the trinity, no.

Shelb5 and therese who is the comforter?
John 15:26, But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me

John 16:7, Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. J

If you answer anything other than the Holy Spirit the Bible will be used to clearly show that you are wrong. I will provide you with enough scripture to prove without a doubt that the comforter is the Holy Spirit.


John 15:26 talks about the Comforter comeing from the Father yet in John 16:7 Jesus refers to the Comforter as "him". The very use of the word shows that Jesus is talking about someone else. Again in John 15:26 the use of the word "he" signifies that Jesus is talking about someone else other than him.

So who is this someone else?
Acts 1:5, For John truely baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

If you answer anything other than the Holy Spirit, again, I will use the Bible to show you that not only is it the Holy Spirit but that the Holy Spirit comes from God.

The only reason I see why you continue to aviod answering these questions is because you don't want to admitt that the Bible is what teaches these things. It's the Word of God that teaches these things. The word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than any twoedged sword. It's the Holy Spirit that gives us wisdom.
2 Peter 1:21, For the prohecy came not in olf time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.



So who is this someone else?

 

[KennySe]

2 Peter 1:21, For the prohecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

So who is this someone else?

Right, Neph. The Holy Spirit is someone else, other than God. You have shown this.