Is the RCC still manly?

[Simon_Templar]

I'm not trying to offend. In fact I've been somewhat loosely rattling around the idea of "swimming the Tiber"

Theologically I have very little problem with Rome.

I find that more often where I really find myself pulling back and not liking what I see is in the realm of social issues, geo-politics, (as well as a few other things here and there).

One of the things I've always liked about the Church historically is that it was no-nonsense, tough, and willing to stand up to people. That sort of thing.

One of the things that has irritated me to no end about many of the western liberal Anglicans is that they basically come off as a bunch of wussified 'namby pambies' (using a phrase from my dad's vocab).

I see this as a general problem with all of western civilization. There is no moral courage left. No will to stand up and defend. No will to fend off the barbarians at the gates.

Of late I've begun to wonder is the Catholic Church in the same boat?

What are your thoughts, opinions, observations?

 

[Eucharisted]

Do not confuse sinners and the Church. Our mother clasps sinners to her bosom but is not herself a sinner.

 

[WarriorAngel]

The Church is the Bride, and also the embodiment of the Lord's Authority.

She directs the world [her faithful] with strength and fortitude. She remains unchanging and staunch in matters of theology.
Referred to as a 'she' because she is the Bride.
That's not to say the Church will accept women priests, or change on contraception, or abortion, or what is truth vs heresy. [etc]

She has a long history of combating heresy and the Traditions are marked for all time.

 

[Memento Mori]

I don't know any organization as committed to making enemies as the Catholic Church.

The pope and the bishops won't shut up about abortion, contraception, same-sex marriage, the secularization of society, the West's Christian heritage, etc. The rebel streak is alive and well.

 

[WarriorAngel]

LOL Jared...but just want to add that the rebellion is the world.

 

[Memento Mori]

LOL Jared...but just want to add that the rebellion is the world.

True, true.

But I like this quote by my man G.K. Chesterton: "The act of defending any of the virtues these days has all the exhilaration of a vice."

 

[WarriorAngel]

Got to love GK

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Go Seek out a Traditionalist Catholic parish [they are most certainly: manly, orthodox, faithful, and strongly Catholic]. Try the FSSP, Institute of Christ the King, Canons Regular of New Jerusalem, Franciscan of the Immaculate.

 

[Rhamiel]

I would say "heroic" is a better word then manly, because the Church is still very feminine in the sense that she nurtures and brings healing to a world sick with sin

I don't know any organization as committed to making enemies as the Catholic Church.

The pope and the bishops won't shut up about abortion, contraception, same-sex marriage, the secularization of society, the West's Christian heritage, etc. The rebel streak is alive and well.

true but the Catholic Church goes beyond liberal and conservative
the Church also speaks out about the rights of workers, immigration reform, the rights of women (this is more of an issure in 3rd world nations)

oh and i love the line "i don't know any orginization as committed to making enemies as the Catholic Church" hahaha good stuff brother

 

[Avaitor]

Well the church (or is it Church, I always confuse what to capitalize) is consisting of the people in it (yah, I think I'm talking about little c).

And I am willing to stand up for whats right, so you have at least one.... I'm guessing the posters above me are too, so that's some more.

The problem is, a lot of people think they can stand by and do nothing, that it's someone else's job to do. This is what we call the "Bystander Effect". This very effect happens even when people are getting murdered (read Murder of Kitty Genovese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )

So it's time we started standing up for what is right, fighting for Honor, Truth, Justice, Dignity, Life. It's time we stand as one voice, one song, to stand in the way of all who choose to do evil. To.... Well look, I'm standing on this soapbox again... this site likes doing that to me.

But in a serious short answer for you, Simon, yes there are still people out in the Church willing to do the right thing.

 

[A Catholic Friend]

Has anyone gone to a welcome back to "Catholic" church site? Do they really help you and welcome you back? Would you reccommend one?

I have gone back to church a few times, but I did not feel welcome back like I did in a church group many years ago.

Has the church changed that much? Do they reach out anymore? Do they want new Catholics only or do they want people who have been away for awhile to come back too?

I want to help people and be part of a church group again, but it's not easy when you go back and you don't feel like you fit in. Is there a place for older Catholics or is the church only for youth groups and young adults and couples who want to get married?

The last time I felt part of the church was in a young adult group.

God bless.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

The Catholic Church wants you to save your soul. And thus she welcomes you unto herself, for she is the "ark of salvation" that Christ gave us. For Christ established her for the salvation of souls. Go for the good of your soul. This is essentially what orthodox Catholic priests preach. Now there are many who do not preach the necessity of the Catholic Church, and surely, they will answer for that before God, come the Day of Judgment.

However, do not expect a welcome party back at Church. Catholics do not typically "socialise" at Holy Mass. Holy Mass is time of solemn worship for the Lord God; not a time to socialise. Socialise will come after, you step out side of the Church proper and either in: a corridor, Hall, another building, the church's foyer, or even outside. Introduce yourself, do not be afraid, when you see parishioners. Most parishes are large enough that they may not even know if you are Catholic or not; lapse or not: or even if you switch parishes every other Sunday, unless you get more involved in the parish.

 

[A Catholic Friend]

I don't know anyone at the mass. I usually got to know people at the church groups after mass or during the week where I met and really got to know people.

You can't get to know anyone after only seeing them for an hour. They are strangers. I don't want to "socialize" at the mass.

I want to get to know people and maybe work with them doing Christian service. If there is any socializing it was a byproduct of getting to know the people within the group.

I don't need a "party". I joined a Catholic Singles party group and all they did was mostly party. I want to join a spirit filled Christian group where people share the gospel, help others and learn about their faith. But thanks anyway.

God bless.

 

[Avaitor]

The church I went to for 15 years, my whole childhood (can't remember before 3 anyway) would have been perfect. No people didn't socialize during mass, but after we the church had a hall and people would volunteer each week to bring in food, make coffee, etc. We originally called it "Coffee" but one CCD class I was in coined the term "Muffin ministry" and it stuck.

During this time people sat around and talked. Everyone knew everyone and they had a great time. If a new person came in you were instantly welcomed and everyone would be glad to let you join any of the various groups. People stayed half the day just talking.

The catch? it is a small town church, and they aren't easy to find anymore, but if you find the right one,you'll feel right at home.

 

[A Catholic Friend]

It sounds good. More churches should do this. People would want to come back each week and fellowship.

 

[JoabAnias]

I'm not trying to offend. In fact I've been somewhat loosely rattling around the idea of "swimming the Tiber"

Theologically I have very little problem with Rome.

I find that more often where I really find myself pulling back and not liking what I see is in the realm of social issues, geo-politics, (as well as a few other things here and there).

One of the things I've always liked about the Church historically is that it was no-nonsense, tough, and willing to stand up to people. That sort of thing.

One of the things that has irritated me to no end about many of the western liberal Anglicans is that they basically come off as a bunch of wussified 'namby pambies' (using a phrase from my dad's vocab).

I see this as a general problem with all of western civilization. There is no moral courage left. No will to stand up and defend. No will to fend off the barbarians at the gates.

Of late I've begun to wonder is the Catholic Church in the same boat?

What are your thoughts, opinions, observations?

The word that comes to mind is "Integrity"

Where are you getting your information on Catholic social justice?

Try these for accuracy:

United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (Bottom link on the left bar) Social Justice Issues

USCCB - (SDWP) - Seven Key Themes of Catholic Social Teaching
USCCB - Justice, Peace and Human Development

 

[The Grey Pilgrim]

I don't know anyone at the mass. I usually got to know people at the church groups after mass or during the week where I met and really got to know people.

You can't get to know anyone after only seeing them for an hour. They are strangers. I don't want to "socialize" at the mass.

I want to get to know people and maybe work with them doing Christian service. If there is any socializing it was a byproduct of getting to know the people within the group.

I don't need a "party". I joined a Catholic Singles party group and all they did was mostly party. I want to join a spirit filled Christian group where people share the gospel, help others and learn about their faith. But thanks anyway.

God bless.

Most Parishes around here where I live have what they call "Hospitality Sundays" where people do socialize over coffee, doughnuts, etc. after Mass. Check your local Parish bullitens(most of the Parishes have them posted online on their websites).

http://www.catholicscomehome.org/ is also a great website for Catholic outreach. Their commercials should be hitting network TV stations sometime this fall.

 

[Simon_Templar]

The word that comes to mind is "Integrity"

Where are you getting your information on Catholic social justice?

Try these for accuracy:

United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (Bottom link on the left bar) Social Justice Issues

USCCB - (SDWP) - Seven Key Themes of Catholic Social Teaching
USCCB - Justice, Peace and Human Development

Perhaps I should clarify.

when I speak of my discomfort with Catholic social justice etc, I don't have any problem with it at the personal, or ecclesial level, its more at the political level.


I guess I would put it this way.

My political philosophy starts from the basic view point that government will inevitably turn towards evil for two reasons.
#1 because human governments are part of the corrupt world system which is under the sway of the evil one and fundamentally opposed to God.
#2 because it is composed of people who are by nature fallen and corrupt and thus inevitably turn to selfishness and abuse of their power.

Thats not even counting what could be a third principle, even people with good intentions often end up doing more harm than good simply because they lack understanding and wisdom. (eg the road to hell is paved with good intentions).

Linked with that view point, I think it is fundamentally unjust to deprive people of the fruits of their labor, especially when the sole purpose is to give said fruits to someone else. In my opinion this is nothing but theft, whether it is done by a government or some guy with a gun makes little difference.

This doesn't even go into the fact that I believe government 'welfare' programs are far more destructive of individuals and of society, than productive.

So, I believe that government should be extremely limited. I also believe that the only just use of taxation is for things that are public use. In other words, if someone can't make use of it, they shouldn't have to pay for it.

To use a current issue as an example. I think it is fundamentally unjust, and incredibly unwise, to push government provided healthcare.
If you want to push Church provided healthcare, I'd support it 100% and be happy to give money to support it.

In general, when it comes to any social issue, I think it is a grave miscarriage of justice and incredibly foolish to try and solve the issue by pushing for government action. Further even, I think this is a dodge of our own personal and ecclesial responsability. Essentially its trying to pawn off our responsability onto others and feel like we've done our job and done good because we've forced other people to do it for us.

I see some Catholics who I think feel the same way, but I don't know if those ideas are represented by the Church. It seems that Catholic teaching on social justice often translates into political action (in terms of voting for the welfare state), rather than actual personal and ecclesial action in the community.


Another issue which has more to do with the title of the thread (and I agree with an earlier poster "heroic" would have been better than manly)

Is that sometimes it almost seems there is an attitude of soft pluralism. There seems to be an unwillingness to say any other religion is a false religion etc.
The Catholic Church stands up on issues like abortion, homosexuality, women's ordination etc, and thankfully so, but why does it seem less than willing to say that Christianity is the truth, and the rest are not?

 

[JoabAnias]

Perhaps I should clarify.

when I speak of my discomfort with Catholic social justice etc, I don't have any problem with it at the personal, or ecclesial level, its more at the political level.

You lost me in how any of that applies to Catholic teachings on Social Justice.

Catholic teachings may at times seem capitalist or socialist from those secular perspectives but they never really are. They are centered on the principles of charity and subsidiarity so are only partisan toward what is moral.

Follow the consensus of the Bishops long enough and that should become clear.

The flood of misinformation and propaganda elsewhere serves to perpetuate confusion.

 

[2WhomShallWeGo]

Perhaps I should clarify.

when I speak of my discomfort with Catholic social justice etc, I don't have any problem with it at the personal, or ecclesial level, its more at the political level.


I guess I would put it this way.

My political philosophy starts from the basic view point that government will inevitably turn towards evil for two reasons.
#1 because human governments are part of the corrupt world system which is under the sway of the evil one and fundamentally opposed to God.
#2 because it is composed of people who are by nature fallen and corrupt and thus inevitably turn to selfishness and abuse of their power.

GK chesterton once said "society t it's worst is still agood but government even at it's best is only a neccessary evil" So I know how you feel. (Sorry I"m probably butchering the quote)

Thats not even counting what could be a third principle, even people with good intentions often end up doing more harm than good simply because they lack understanding and wisdom. (eg the road to hell is paved with good intentions).

Linked with that view point, I think it is fundamentally unjust to deprive people of the fruits of their labor, especially when the sole purpose is to give said fruits to someone else. In my opinion this is nothing but theft, whether it is done by a government or some guy with a gun makes little difference.

This doesn't even go into the fact that I believe government 'welfare' programs are far more destructive of individuals and of society, than productive.

So, I believe that government should be extremely limited. I also believe that the only just use of taxation is for things that are public use. In other words, if someone can't make use of it, they shouldn't have to pay for it.

To use a current issue as an example. I think it is fundamentally unjust, and incredibly unwise, to push government provided healthcare.
If you want to push Church provided healthcare, I'd support it 100% and be happy to give money to support it.

In general, when it comes to any social issue, I think it is a grave miscarriage of justice and incredibly foolish to try and solve the issue by pushing for government action. Further even, I think this is a dodge of our own personal and ecclesial responsability. Essentially its trying to pawn off our responsability onto others and feel like we've done our job and done good because we've forced other people to do it for us.

Totally agree

I see some Catholics who I think feel the same way, but I don't know if those ideas are represented by the Church. It seems that Catholic teaching on social justice often translates into political action (in terms of voting for the welfare state), rather than actual personal and ecclesial action in the community.

This is probably because many use bad rhetoric disguised as compassion to get votes. The devil quotes scripture don't be surprised if he quotes the church. I for one am one am a catholic who see that catholic teaching has made it unfortunately clear that most politicians are greasy dirtbags who desperately need to get some scruples

Another issue which has more to do with the title of the thread (and I agree with an earlier poster "heroic" would have been better than manly)

Is that sometimes it almost seems there is an attitude of soft pluralism. There seems to be an unwillingness to say any other religion is a false religion etc.
The Catholic Church stands up on issues like abortion, homosexuality, women's ordination etc, and thankfully so, but why does it seem less than willing to say that Christianity is the truth, and the rest are not?

Actually the church does say this but their are many with in the church who confuse this. They start with a true premise but reach a bad conclusion. It is correct that we have to be tactful in our presentation of the truth. This does not mean that we have license to change the truth or obscure it. (or Him)

Never get the idea that in coming to The Church that you will avoid persecution or people with bad ideas and stupid politics. This is a place for sinners. Their is a reason for the hierarchical nature of the church and all the pages of dogma. but people still sin. Conversion is a life process for us too. but many people would rather make excuse for staying where they are in their undeveloped faith this isn't a very catholic thing for a catholic to do. Some one I loved very much converted in the middle of the boston priest abuse scandals. She converted because of the Eucharist. She Went Baptist->Anglican->Catholic I think for those who truly convert to anything it has to be irregardless of people.

God bless